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Thank you - this was exactly my point by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 1:49pm PST
mark wrote:

I need clarification wrote:


How the hell was BSP not revolutionary for its time? Because sooner or later it would have been invented anyway? Does that mean if and when time travel is invented, the guy will be considered a fucking implementer of BINRO'S THEORY?


Well, Carmack would need a time machine to have created BSP trees as I believe the data structure was first discussed in a 1975 paper by J. L. Bentley (athough discussions of using trees to do hidden edge removal dates back to 1969 paper by R. A. Schumacker, R. Brand, M. Gilliland, and W. Sharp). Furthermore, the first use of it as a way to render solid 3d scenes was by Fuchs, Kedem, and Naylor in 1983. Naylor went on to write a whole slug of papers about 3d rendering using BSP through-out the 1980s and 1990s. Other exciting papers include Chin and Feiner's paper on using BSP trees for near real time shadow generation from 1989, etc. Of course all they did was to come up with the theories, show proof of the validity, and in many cases implement these algorithms opposed to implementing them 10 years later (when hardware had caught up) and making a game out of it.

mark


It was the Schumacker and Bentley papers I believe Carmack was referring to when I read where the idea came from, but the fact that there were prior existing implementations (albeit many in tech demos and papers) can also be said of, to the best of my knowledge, every major 'innovation' of Carmack's with the exception of Commander Keen's clock-independence to the best of my knowledge. As for the Reverse . . . it would be nice if someone more qualified than me (and with a better inside knowledge of the who/when of the) weighed in on this. Unlike visibility, I don't really have a good understanding of shadow algorithms.

This is, again, what I've been saying from the beginning - Carmack excels at taking existing ideas and finding local optima for them with 1-2 notable exceptions. There is a difference between a great programmer and someone who gives birth to fundamentally new ideas like some sort of oracle, and many people seem to misunderstand this.

--SB
PREVIOUS NEXT REPLY QUOTE
 
Carmack's 'rocket' by Senor Barborito 02/05/2003, 5:41am PST NEW
    Re: Carmack's 'rocket' by Mischief Maker 02/05/2003, 11:58am PST NEW
    Sheesh by I need clarification 02/09/2003, 12:01am PST NEW
        Re: Sheesh by Cyrris 02/09/2003, 1:26am PST NEW
            That's telling me by I need clarification 02/09/2003, 2:11am PST NEW
        Well by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 6:06am PST NEW
    I don't get it! by Fussbett 02/09/2003, 1:11am PST NEW
        He's jealous. Duh. -nt- NT by Entropy Stew 02/09/2003, 3:22am PST NEW
        I'm not much of a programmer by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 4:58am PST NEW
            You're not much of anything by I need clarification 02/09/2003, 5:32am PST NEW
                Re: You're not much of anything by Zebco Fuckface 02/09/2003, 5:47am PST NEW
                    Re: You're not much of anything by I need clarification 02/09/2003, 6:29am PST NEW
                That's better than being unable to read by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 5:49am PST NEW
                    Also question for the moron by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 5:56am PST NEW
                        Oh, stop with the pretending you know math, already. by I need clarification 02/09/2003, 6:32am PST NEW
                    "You can't read." Brilliant. by I need clarification 02/09/2003, 6:28am PST NEW
                        Better than anything you've posted to the site, at least by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 12:43pm PST NEW
                            Holy crap, it just occurred to me. by I need clarification 02/09/2003, 2:31pm PST NEW
                                PS: by I need clarification 02/09/2003, 2:49pm PST NEW
                                    Hahahaha by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 3:18pm PST NEW
                                Thank you for proving my point. by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 3:17pm PST NEW
                                Tsk tsk, and you were almost making sense up until that point by Entropy Stew 02/09/2003, 4:55pm PST NEW
                                    You're both right and wrong. by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 5:45pm PST NEW
                                        Carmack: History's rocketeer or programmer? by Fussbett 02/09/2003, 6:08pm PST NEW
                                            Presumably by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 6:18pm PST NEW
                                        Also some anecdotal failures on these topics by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 6:16pm PST NEW
                                            Re: Also some anecdotal failures on these topics by Zebco Fuckface 02/09/2003, 7:10pm PST NEW
                                            Re: Also some anecdotal failures on these topics by Zebco Fuckface 02/09/2003, 7:13pm PST NEW
                                                Hell by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 8:51pm PST NEW
                                                    Also by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 8:58pm PST NEW
                                                        Hold up by mark 02/09/2003, 9:19pm PST NEW
                                                    Re: Hell by Zebco Fuckface 02/09/2003, 11:48pm PST NEW
                                                        Re: Hell by Senor Barborito 02/10/2003, 12:07am PST NEW
                                                            Re: Hell by Zebco Fuckface 02/11/2003, 7:08am PST NEW
                                            Lot of network talk over the past few days .. by bastage 02/09/2003, 7:48pm PST NEW
                                                Re: Lot of network talk over the past few days .. by Lufteufel 02/09/2003, 10:07pm PST NEW
                                                    Quake 1: 250-350ms ping over modem. Those were the days n/t NT by <-Nordic-> 02/11/2003, 9:48pm PST NEW
                                            Re: Also some anecdotal failures on these topics by mark 02/09/2003, 9:43pm PST NEW
                                                Re: Also some anecdotal failures on these topics by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 9:59pm PST NEW
                                                oops, should have read this first re: carmack [nt] NT by Lufteufel 02/09/2003, 10:08pm PST NEW
                                            Re: Also some anecdotal failures on these topics by Mysterio 11/23/2013, 6:46am PST NEW
                                                Re: Also some anecdotal failures on these topics by col.schickn 11/23/2013, 8:38am PST NEW
                                        This post should be stickied forever by This is what futurists actually bel 08/07/2017, 10:55am PDT NEW
                                            Long bets, and the futurists that love them NT by Voxels vs V-2s 08/07/2017, 3:00pm PDT NEW
                                            Rocket, stealing porn goggle tech, Futurism isn't an 'exact' science. NT by The Happiness Engine 08/08/2017, 6:26pm PDT NEW
                                    Yeah, exactly. by I need clarification 02/09/2003, 8:57pm PST NEW
                        A quick literature search by mark 02/09/2003, 1:26pm PST NEW
                            Thank you - this was exactly my point by Senor Barborito 02/09/2003, 1:49pm PST NEW
                    Re: That's better than being unable to read by Fat Autistic Fuck 06/11/2022, 12:27pm PDT NEW
            Re: I'm not much of a programmer by Zebco Fuckface 02/09/2003, 5:46am PST NEW
                Yeah, me too!! by I need clarification 02/09/2003, 6:19am PST NEW
            Re: I'm not much of a programmer by fanclub 02/10/2003, 4:36pm PST NEW
                You're right by Senor Barborito 02/10/2003, 4:45pm PST NEW
                    But I thought you wanted to weed out the imperfect... -nt- NT by Entropy Stew 02/11/2003, 1:28am PST NEW
    This whole thing. Bump. NT by Mysterio 11/22/2013, 4:57pm PST NEW
        I was going to snicker at the prediction of Doom 3 revolutionizing the industry by Lemoney Snick 11/22/2013, 7:55pm PST NEW
            Look, the technology was ready, but he was afraid he'd open a portal to hell by blackwater 11/22/2013, 10:20pm PST NEW
 
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