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Re: Double taxation by blackwater 10/15/2017, 11:00pm PDT
C++ Guevara wrote:

Keeping track of the amount of times a single amount of money is taxed is an abstract and artificial concept. Only when you set up an arbitrary window, like between (a) income received by a corporation to (b) income received by a shareholder, and then label it as "double taxation" does it start to look like "double". If viewed as two separate incomes, first by the corporation (which, as we know, is legally a person) and secondly by the shareholder, it's of course two different taxes and no big deal.

What if the shareholder has an executive assistant? The shareholder pays the assistant, from the money already twice taxed... and that income to the assistant is taxed again! OH GOD TRIPLE TAXATION! The only difference is that wealthy people point out the shareholder owns a piece of the corporation, is not an employee, and therefore the corporation income is his and the dividend is also his. Again, just labels.


Listen, friend, we both understand that money flows through the economy and is taxed many times along the way. And money is also spent or created by the government, creating the cycle. I'm not an idiot, and you don't need to talk down to me. And this is Caltrops, so you don't need to say sorry for calling me an idiot, either.

C++ Guevara wrote:


So finally, YES, even if you insist on the "double taxation" label, who fucking cares? Make it triple taxation. Quadruple. The amount of "times" is irrelevant and just semantics. Only the percentage of money paid matters and last I checked, rich people in America are doing fine. And by checking I mean checking numbers. "Double taxation" is an effort to inject some emotion into the unfairness of it all, free the debate from actual numbers.


You keep saying that it's "abstract" or "artificial" for a business to worry about how many times its profit stream is taxed. But this is clearly important to the business. Yes, there are other, valid ways to view the flow of money. But that doesn't make this one "abstract" or "artificial." If you don't like the terminology I'm using, then propose a better one.

Let's rewind. This whole discussion came up because you claimed that reducing or eliminating corporate tax would be a huge boondoggle for the wealthy that would impoverish the rest of us. But you've already shown with your examples that the money will be taxed anyway. So the analysis needs to be a lot more complex.

C++ Guevara wrote:


But hell, you want to eliminate corporate taxes and instead jack up capital gains and dividend tax so that it's on par with all income tax? Since that's income for a rich person? I'm all for it. Hell, I'll throw in a loophole that allows an investor to, instead of claiming that dividend as income, immediately re-invest it, without a large (or any?) tax penalty. If you keep your money working in the economy, fine, but once you convert it to yacht money, it's taxed heavy.


In that case, I just create a trust fund for myself, and re-invest in it. And bingo, I pay no taxes.

C++ Guevara wrote:


I don't get this at all. Pepsi has less money to pay employees after PepsiCo shares go up? And I clearly cited shareholders being paid dividends in my previous post, not share prices going up. It would be embarrassing if you didn't understand that difference, so let's move on.


My point was that the tax structure we have now penalizes being an employee (wage earner) and privileges being an owner (shareholder). And this is the reason why a lot of the most wealthy people don't pay their fair share.

C++ Guevara wrote:

blackwater wrote:

I'm not a libertarian. But my understanding is that libertarians do believe in taxes, just lower ones than currently exist.


The fabled moderate libertarian! I hear they're great guys.


I don't understand what you're talking about? Are you implying that I'm a libertarian? I already explained that I was not. Or are you saying that believing in taxes is a "moderate libertarian" position? That is definitely incorrect. Libertarians believe that the government should do stuff, like enforce contracts. And it needs money to do that stuff. I think the political faction you are looking for, that doesn't believe in taxes, is the Anarchists. (But not the ancaps, that's a different one.)

C++ Guevara wrote:

If your belief is that less mid-sized and small businesses are what gutted the middle class, it's an ultra-simplistic answer at best, and flat wrong at worst. You're ignoring the effect of a million factors on the fate of the small business, like hey, how about those gigantic megacorporation monopolies existing at all, for example. How do you compete with Walmart, Amazon, Google and Apple today? Man, I'd start a small business but what if I get sick? I need my employer's health insurance for my family... Oh well, I'll just go work in the factory or the mine instead, I guess. Oh, those are gone. OK, opiates.


I was not being entirely serious with that last line. Economists have spilled a lot of ink about what is causing the relative decline of the middle class, without coming to any firm conclusions. But it is pretty clear that the middle class gets screwed on its tax rates compared to the Warren Buffets of the world.
PREVIOUS NEXT REPLY QUOTE
 
Anyone here believe a corp. tax cut will give "American workers [a] pay raise"? NT by C++ Guevara 08/30/2017, 1:23pm PDT NEW
    Top down interest makes that very difficult by Mysterio, "Devil's Advocate?" 08/30/2017, 2:23pm PDT NEW
        Re: Top down interest makes that very difficult by C++ Guevara 09/01/2017, 1:58pm PDT NEW
    Paul Rand, Reagan's ghost, Trump by idiots, basically 08/30/2017, 2:36pm PDT NEW
    Every business owner would just see it as what they rightfully deserved. by Mysterio 09/01/2017, 3:44pm PDT NEW
        Too high compared to who? NT by Greece? Somalia? 09/23/2017, 11:50pm PDT NEW
            Comparison by Greece? Somalia? 09/23/2017, 11:55pm PDT NEW
                (LOL @ Regan's final year and "fuck you" to this country's long term viability) by Greece? Somalia? 09/24/2017, 12:02am PDT NEW
    The US should cut its corporate tax rate. by blackwater 09/24/2017, 4:18am PDT NEW
        Who the hell starts a small business as a C-Corporation these days? by Mischief Maker 09/24/2017, 6:22am PDT NEW
            Basics! by John M.F. Keynes 09/24/2017, 10:06am PDT NEW
                Re: Basics! by C++ Guevara 09/25/2017, 10:53am PDT NEW
            What is considered R&D for tax purposes has little relation to reality by blackwater 09/25/2017, 2:33pm PDT NEW
                Sorry, meant to write NIH. by blackwater 09/25/2017, 2:35pm PDT NEW
        I'm okay with corporate taxes going down as long as mine go down too. by Judge Barry 09/24/2017, 10:38am PDT NEW
            This is a terrible economic policy based on nothing NT by indistinguishable from TDarcos 09/24/2017, 5:55pm PDT NEW
                "Only corporate taxes should go down" great work dummy by Judge Barry 09/24/2017, 8:00pm PDT NEW
                    Sorry I fucked up the exaggeration by indistinguishable from TDarcos 10/19/2017, 6:54am PDT NEW
        Double taxation by C++ Guevara 09/25/2017, 10:47am PDT NEW
            Re: Double taxation by blackwater 09/25/2017, 2:27pm PDT NEW
                Re: Double taxation by C++ Guevara 09/26/2017, 10:49am PDT NEW
                    Re: Double taxation by blackwater 10/15/2017, 11:00pm PDT NEW
                        That guy destroyed you. Why go back for more? NT by this is what libertarians actuallyb 10/19/2017, 7:02am PDT NEW
                        Re: Double taxation by C++ Guevara 10/24/2017, 10:56pm PDT NEW
                            Re: Double taxation by blackwater 10/25/2017, 6:20pm PDT NEW
                                One point of clarification and I will shut up. by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/25/2017, 8:07pm PDT NEW
                                Re: Double taxation by C++ Guevara 10/26/2017, 12:29am PDT NEW
                                    Hahaha, good one! You're killing him, C++!!! by this is what libertarians actuallyb 10/26/2017, 9:55am PDT NEW
                                        This wasn't me. by this is what libertarians actuallyb 10/26/2017, 10:25pm PDT NEW
                                            I was on your side until you thought I was so stupid you had to point this out. by John M.F. Keynes 10/26/2017, 11:31pm PDT NEW
                                            Are you sure it wasn't you? by It sure sounded like you 10/27/2017, 7:07am PDT NEW
                                    Re: Double taxation by blackwater 10/26/2017, 4:02pm PDT NEW
                                C++ is wrecking you here. Take a time out. by this is what libertarians actuallyb 10/26/2017, 4:14am PDT NEW
 
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