Forum Overview :: Motherfucking News
 
Since you asked me by Senor Barborito 08/08/2003, 7:01pm PDT
I'm disinclined to respond to this post - I'm not on the mania high I was on when I wrote my previous response and as a result I'm a solid 10-20 points lower in IQ, and feel a good 50 lower - honestly, like my mental hands just got chopped off. This response isn't going to live up to its parent, but I'll still make an attempt . . .

Lizard_King wrote:

Can you really tell me with a straight fucking face that you think the idea of Hussein seeking to develop WMD's was wholly irrational in the prewar period? Because I don't think you can. I don't think his behaviour in the last decade speaks of anything other than such a search, and I think there is plenty of evidence that supports that those weapons did exist. Even your precious UN was more than willing to admit that there were vast quantities of materiel missing...


I think it would have been extremely naive to believe there were still serviceable WMD in Iraq as of September or so prior to the war, and by late February there should have been little question to someone who had given the published evidence a cursory examination.

First off, much can be deduced by the greater actions of the nations in question - Hussein all but broadcast in plain English, "we'll do whatever you want, just don't invade." Unlimited inspections by the UN? You've got them. Destroy an entire class of missles? On it.

Would the Bush administration ever abide by those standards if the situation were reversed?

Meanwhile, the US blustered with various pieces of evidence that were proven false, specious, and in one case cribbed from a graduate student's thesis - no matter how much Hussein acquiesced, the US continued to push towards war at every turn regardless of what allies we alienated in process. Almost as though they were following PNAC's agendasheet to the letter and reasons be damned.

This was a dead giveaway.

Nevermind that Blix and his team found barely anything. Nevermind the flimsy nature of the evidence the US presented. Then there was the matter of former inspector Ritter's interview with the Guardian. True, Ritter had accepted money from an Iraqi businessman to make a movie about the inspections - but what that article fails to mention is that the final tally left him paying $40,000 out of his own pocket ($80,000 actually, but he took $40,000 of the money he got to make the movie as salary) to make that movie, which no propagandist would ever do. What's more, he wasn't approached about it until after he began writing in defense of Iraq and the earlier inspections in '99.

Too many pieces of weak evidence being waved about to make the case, too many good points against said case overlooked, and the US administration behaving very tellingly while Hussein gave in to their demands as much as he could without completely losing face? Then we have the issue of PNAC's principles, and more relevant letter to Clinton on Iraq.

What names do you see? On the Statement of Principles we see Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney (the current VP), Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz just to name the top players. The letter lists Armitage, Perle, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld. The latter three (the top three men of the State Department at the time) were always the primary force pushing the war on Iraq - that much was obvious as soon as Iraq became an issue. The latter two are still heading the State Department, as Perle resigned his chairmanship of the Defense Policy Board over conflict of interest (he stood to profit from the war on Iraq). I've always said I felt Cheney was in on it - his name on the statement of principles is pretty damning. Anyone listening to anything Tenet has said lately would come to this conclusion as well.

You have eyes and a brain, so do I. I predicted we wouldn't find much if anything in the way of WMD well in advance of the war based on the above and I appear to have been right. Will we still possibly find a small cache of well-hidden WMDs? We might possibly find anything. But the final measure is that the claim of Hussein being any kind of threat to anybody except his own people while we held a policy of containment upon it was false - and this was fairly obvious from the beginning. I suggested that the United States take a few cribbed notes from its rich history of toppling third world governments and apply them to Iraq way back then, and I still maintain my belief that this would've been the correct course of action.

Lizard_King wrote:

Where they are now is a very good question. But I hardly think there is a dearth of options given Iraq's neighbours.


If even the the barest facts of what Ritter said in that interview were true - easily ascertained by questioning an expert on WMD - then it was a non-issue before the war and is even less of an issue now. There probably were and are very little to no viable weapons of any kind between UN-supervised destruction (90-95% of all WMD capability), unsupervised Iraqi destruction (unspecified percentage of the remainder), and most importantly aging for what little remains.


Lizard_King wrote:

As to Yellowcakegate or whatever you faggots are calling it now...look at what Bush actually said. He said: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

If American intel indicated that the British were incorrect in that assessment (which they still stand by, and who would you trust between MI6 and the CIA?), then it was at most a mistake to include it, not the impeachable offense you fruits make it out to be. Either way, Hussein doing that is still far more plausible than Bush thinking he could could just sneak that one by....why take such a risk on such a tiny part of the evidence?


I agree. It was not an impeachable offense because it is not a crime to lie in a State of the Union address in order to deceive the nation into an unnecessary war. Ask veronica whether or not I alternatingly laughed and swore like a sailor throughout that speech - she'll vouch for my having done so. What Bush was saying was pretty obviously false, and the actions of the United States government in any kind of diplomatic sense at the time made it very clear that this was being rammed through the policy banks like-it-or-not just like the Patriot Act. There was not and is not an excuse for not having seen this - the right certainly had its cynicism armed when Clinton was in office, and rightly so - he perjured himself regarding a trivial personal matter while sitting President and dodged Sierra Leone in a stunning display of callousness to human rights. I didn't make any excuses for him then, and I don't do so now. The right had and has MANY MORE reasons to be cynical about the actions of the current administration - the pike at the gates and the sign nailed there by the State Department, not to mention Ashcroft running roughshod over the Constitution - there is no excuse for not being so.

There is no reason to impeach Bush, there is every reason to vote against him in the upcoming election.

--SB
I hope some of you vote for Dean in your local primaries, and hopefully in the election in '04 - he's the left's only worthy candidate by a large measure.
PREVIOUS NEXT REPLY QUOTE
 
The man just keeps making sense. by Lizard_King 08/06/2003, 10:07pm PDT NEW
    Re: The man just keeps making sense. by Antonius Snape 08/07/2003, 4:12am PDT NEW
        You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by Lizard_King 08/07/2003, 2:32pm PDT NEW
            Re: You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by foogla 08/07/2003, 3:41pm PDT NEW
                Re: You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by laudablepuss 08/07/2003, 4:13pm PDT NEW
                    Didn't his awful cruelty and dictatorship bother you? Only WMDs? NT by mrs. johnson 08/07/2003, 5:02pm PDT NEW
                        Sure. So what? by laudablepuss 08/07/2003, 5:16pm PDT NEW
                        Re: Didn't his awful cruelty and dictatorship bother you? Only WMDs? by Lizard_King 08/07/2003, 9:10pm PDT NEW
                        Re: Didn't his awful cruelty and dictatorship bother you? Only WMDs? by godamit 08/08/2003, 10:49am PDT NEW
                Re: You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by Lizard_King 08/07/2003, 8:55pm PDT NEW
                    Re: You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by foogla 08/08/2003, 4:32am PDT NEW
            The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Senor Barborito 08/08/2003, 4:34am PDT NEW
                Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 10:49am PDT NEW
                Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 11:05am PDT NEW
                    Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 11:17am PDT NEW
                    Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Fullofkittens 08/08/2003, 12:31pm PDT NEW
                        Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 12:44pm PDT NEW
                        Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 3:03pm PDT NEW
                            Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 3:59pm PDT NEW
                                Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 4:27pm PDT NEW
                                    My "we elected Gore" comment... by Fullofkittens 08/08/2003, 4:57pm PDT NEW
                                        Re: My "we elected Gore" comment... by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 5:29pm PDT NEW
                                            As you speak by Fullofkittens 08/08/2003, 7:01pm PDT NEW
                                                Re: As you speak by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 7:19pm PDT NEW
                                                    Re: As you speak by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 9:33pm PDT NEW
                                                        Re: As you speak by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 12:00am PDT NEW
                                                            What the hell? by Damocles 08/09/2003, 2:12am PDT NEW
                                                                Re: What the hell? by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 2:29am PDT NEW
                                                            Re: As you speak by I need clarification 08/09/2003, 2:33pm PDT NEW
                                                                Re: As you speak by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 4:24pm PDT NEW
                                                                    Re: As you speak by I need clarification 08/09/2003, 4:52pm PDT NEW
                                                                        Re: As you speak by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 5:41pm PDT NEW
                                                                            Re: As you speak by I need clarification 08/09/2003, 10:22pm PDT NEW
                                                                                If we were a democracy we'd get better tech, but then have riots because of Iraq NT by Roop Dirump 08/09/2003, 11:07pm PDT NEW
                                                                                    Or you'd have more energy, more Fungus growth and more Drones while at war. NT by foogla 08/10/2003, 4:49am PDT NEW
                                                                                Are you just trolling me now? Or have you always? NT by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 11:46pm PDT NEW
                                                                                    For a while now, yeah by I need clarification 08/10/2003, 1:14am PDT NEW
                            Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 5:54pm PDT NEW
                                My pleasure by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 6:03pm PDT NEW
                                    Well, that explains a lot. by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 6:35pm PDT NEW
                    I hate it when you get lazy by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 2:01pm PDT NEW
                        I hate it when you post by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 2:54pm PDT NEW
                            Re: I hate it when you post by Dr. Logic 08/08/2003, 3:40pm PDT NEW
                                Re: I hate it when you post by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 3:52pm PDT NEW
                                    Re: I hate it when you post by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 5:26pm PDT NEW
                                        Re: I hate it when you post by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 5:56pm PDT NEW
                                            My mistake. by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 7:00pm PDT NEW
                                                Re: My mistake. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 8:51pm PDT NEW
                            Don't accuse me of babbling while the spit bubbles drift by your retard helmet by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 3:52pm PDT NEW
                                Re: Don't accuse me of babbling while the spit bubbles drift by your retard helm by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 3:58pm PDT NEW
                                    Re: Don't accuse me of babbling while the spit bubbles drift by your retard helm by Dr. Logic 08/08/2003, 4:06pm PDT NEW
                                        It didn't originate from the document. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 4:34pm PDT NEW
                            "learned" implies truth. NT by Damocles 08/09/2003, 2:13am PDT NEW
                                Hitting "reply" implies you have something to add. by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 2:31am PDT NEW
                                    I used to think LK was Damocles's new nick NT by FABIO 08/09/2003, 10:52pm PDT NEW
                                        That our views are directly contrary must have tipped you off. NT by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 11:46pm PDT NEW
                                            Re: That our views are directly contrary must have tipped you off. by FABIO 08/10/2003, 1:29am PDT NEW
                    Since you asked me by Senor Barborito 08/08/2003, 7:01pm PDT NEW
                        Re: Since you asked me by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 9:25pm PDT NEW
                            That response was beneath you by Senor Barborito 08/08/2003, 10:44pm PDT NEW
                                Nothing is beneath me. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 11:56pm PDT NEW
                                    Thank you. by Senor Barborito 08/09/2003, 7:12am PDT NEW
                                        Re: Thank you. by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 1:13pm PDT NEW
                                            Hmmm by Senor Barborito 08/09/2003, 2:57pm PDT NEW
                                                Re: Hmmm by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 5:47pm PDT NEW
                WHAT??!!!! by Mischief Maker 08/08/2003, 1:08pm PDT NEW
                    That's because you are (far) to the left of even them. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 2:55pm PDT NEW
                        Imagine an airplane. by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 3:30pm PDT NEW
                            Re: Imagine an airplane. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 3:49pm PDT NEW
                                You people must feel awful by mrs. johnson 08/08/2003, 6:54pm PDT NEW
                                    That's not what a writer would do NT by Fussbett 08/09/2003, 2:21am PDT NEW
                                    Ignorance is only bliss for fools and cowards.NT NT by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 5:49pm PDT NEW
                                        What if the topic at hand is menstruation? NT by Senor Barborito 08/09/2003, 6:20pm PDT NEW
                                            Your own or someone else's? NT by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 6:42pm PDT NEW
                            When can I stop imagining an airplane? NT by Fussbett 08/09/2003, 2:23am PDT NEW
                                Now you have to imagine it slamming into the WTC :( NT by I need clarification 08/09/2003, 2:50am PDT NEW
                                    Then you have to imagine the entire passanger compliment fucking. wildly. -nt- by Chairman Mao 08/09/2003, 3:11am PDT NEW
                                        Talk about explosive orgasms NT by TERRASTS R SEXY 08/09/2003, 2:58pm PDT NEW
                                    On the upside: Hippies and Nazis on the left wing die. NT by Fussbett 08/09/2003, 4:59pm PDT NEW
                                        :( NT by foogla 08/09/2003, 8:00pm PDT NEW
                                I was going to tie it in and forgot. So, uh, you can stop now. NT by laudablepuss 08/10/2003, 3:22am PDT NEW
 
powered by pointy