Forum Overview :: Gamerasutra :: Re: No, fast min-max

[quote name="ValiumAddict"][quote name="Senor Barborito"] Unfortunately no, because the game inevitably devolves into 'RUSH THE CENTER AND PUSH HIM BACK INTO HIS BASE' Tug of war. All the development that went into Starcraft, all the millions of hours that have been spent playing it have reduced it down to a game of fucking Tug of war. Tell me you don't see something wrong with this. There's nothing extra-special about Korean fingers or manual dexterity - it's just that at least as far as I and many other people could tell the powergaming madhouse click-frenzy rushes centered around min-max that reduced the game to tug of war came out of that community. It was frustrating as fuck to encounter because you'd try doing something original time after time only to be overwhelmed in a frenzy of non-stop clicking. The 100% efficient build order + the one or two best units that could be obtained quickly just over and over at you like a million fucking bugs in Starship Troopers. To me RTS games are invalid unless there is an actual balance between rush-tactics and turtle tactics and Starcraft was when I really sat up and noticed 'Holy shit everything I liked about this genre is dead.' --SB[/quote] What tug of war? That you couldn't outmanoeuvre your troops faster than he could with the mouse? That comes down to practice doesn't it, then you have Monty's argument. What these high level players have done is figured out a way execute in an efficient manner their best strategy on a micromanagement level. It well and fine for you to dream up original tactics and counters, but until you get good at accomplishing them to full effect. Yes, you're gonna get beat down by a guys who spend hours and hours perfecting their one technique. It's one thing to have a cool idea on paper, it's a long road to actually making it work. Theory only opens the door, it's a long walk. And starcraft allowed it, most games that last longer than the initial ten minute build order/rush battle eventually did evolved into a sko of counter/counter-counter rock/paper/scissors game. If he was going mass Hydralisks, couple of M&Ms could stop that, Lurker, Pssst, tanks. You just had to know and that was where the fun laid for some of us. Your description of single Uber unit mass produced really doesn't fit. Any half decent starcraft player knows the effective counters to mass units. Fabs mentions this below. UNLIKE MAMMOTH TANKS!!!!!, where you had no effective counter, no matter how clever. It's tug of war if the two are massing the same damn units and are just crashing tsunami waves into one another over and over and over again. Gods, that IS boring as hell. What you seem to complaining about is the fact that you aren't as clickety click quick as the other guy. Again this is practice. Koreans have a lot of practice, because they spend ALL day doing it. Starcraft is a national culture. You on the other hand, code websites, have a girlfriend, play other games and occasionally get depressed. Bound to affect spending 24/7 on a computer game. Yes you're gonna lose against these fanatical fanbois. Now what i don't get is how C&C is not everything you mentioned as a min/max game. All that ever happened in those games were massing of the particular uber unit that would just roll over everything. And this was in every of it's incarnations, save perhaps with RA2 yuri's revenge. Generals shows inclinations of heading down this very path. (rocket buggies anyone?) Turtling in C&C has never worked, has it? [/quote]