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Re: I like it when you make up things. It's funny. by Lizard_King 07/16/2003, 9:17pm PDT
Damocles wrote:


The fact that you tried to use the words "natural law" in regards to a social science like economics is really funny. And downright Marxist, as a matter of fact.


Of course. Because little things like cause and effect are no longer at work when people like you are adding the numbers. Or supply and demand. Or any other basic precept on which nature functions. You jackass.


Does this even have a meaning? Government paying for something is not inherently "socialist"; it can be Keynesian, or liberal, or just common sense. Socialism, as understood by socialists, is the ownership of the means of production by the proletariat. Considering that a) the government isn't the proletariat and b)Americans don't even think of themselves as a "proletariat" in the first place, it ain't socialism. It's just government.


No, what you define there is orthodox communism, circa turn of the 19th century. I don't think even Stalin was functioning with those terms except at a rhetorical level. Even Lenin had his backwards, "vanguard of the working class" workaround for ensuring no proletariat actually controlled a damned thing.

I mean, fuck, government providing services predates the concept of socialism by only several thousand years.


Only if you are so stupid as to regard modern socialism as a wholly separate creature from what predated it. Were Christian communes not socialist because Karl Marx had not vomited out his works yet? How about primitive collectivist tribes, etc?


Horseshit. First, shut up about "me and my kind" spending everyone else's earnings, unless you want to dig yourself in even further by bleating "taxation is theft". Government spending is as legitimate as any other.

I can and will. Government spending is by definition not as legitimate as any other, rather it requires more justification than a rich guy buying himself a Benz, because government does not earn money, since in the markets that it does involve itself it artificially enforces monopolies on its behalf. At gunpoint, if necessary.
There are plenty of places where government central planning is an adequate solution for ideological, common sense, or other reasons, such as in national defense. Taxation is then justified for practical purposes.

Second, health care doesn't operate like other commodities, because people don't behave like rational consumers when their lives are on the line, and don't know enough about the service to judge who's good and who's bad.


Ah, the old "people are too ignorant to spend their own money" argument. How do you propose that a "system" of any sort is going to provide better judgement? By having experts decide who should get what treatment from whom? Perhaps we could have a central service, let's call it, I don't know, GOSPLAN, to do it. People are rational consumers in any non-emergency situation and even sometimes in those(ie, while emergency room visits may not be covered by rational decision making most of the time, the bulk of medical care is). Simply because they do not necessarily prioritize matters in a manner that you find palatable does not make them wrong; if they wish to roll the dice and spend their money on consumer electronics rather than health insurance, it is THEIR FUCKING BUSINESS. As a corollary, there is no way that having rich people subsidize health care for the poor except voluntarily is anything but corrupt and inefficient.

Third, even if they were, insurance irrevocably screw things up anyway, because doctors can game the system. That means everything costs more, while drug companies and medical specialists make out like bandits from all the insurance cash. The only way to deal with any of this is a monopsony, where there's only one health care consumer.


That is patently absurd. You must have known it when you posted it. You seriously claim that in a free market environment (which does not, in fact, exist now, rather some sort of cartel/socialist hybrid) insurance companies will not audit receipts and question the judgement of the health care providers? That is what your beloved courts are for, for christ's sake.


Oh please. Yes, Government-provided medicare ends up costing less, as any number of studies could tell you, for the reasons I stated above.


Yes, and if we devoted 20% of GNP to pineapple growth, for instance, pineapples would end up costing less as well, so long as you do not take into account the growth you deprive other sectors of the economy by taxing the shit out of investors and diverting their funds inefficiently as any industry without a profit incentive inevitably will. That is because economy is fundamentally based on choosing to divert scarce or limited resources, something which socialists perennially fail to understand will undermine the rest of the economy if concentrated inefficiently in centrally planned crusades rather than spent as much as possible at the lowest or initial level of decision making, the individual. You know, the only person that KNOWS what he wants, rather than what you think he should prefer.

Also, plz define "massive taxation", these mystery costs and these "long term effects", because I think you're yanking this out of your ass in the vain hope that I don't know that the Laffer curve is a load of shit and hard monetarism is long discredited. As is this "interrelated economies" stuff... if you mean internationally you're just wrong, and if you mean within a country I can only say "so"? That could also be an argument for free market firefighting, and that's just stupid.


Massive taxation=the amount of money it costs in the People's Republic of (Canada, Germany, France, etc), which they lop out in their high tax rates, to fund their AWSUM health care. Clear enough for you?

I mean nationally. As in, I can't invest my money in x industry which I think could provide a favourable return, incidentally employing people etc, because it's going to fund this massive bureaucracy that will provide tongue depressors in ghettoes because the government has to tax a greater share of my money from me. Clear?
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Video games still bad. Movies and bullies A-OK. by Fussbett 07/09/2003, 4:19pm PDT NEW
    Re: Video games still bad. Movies and bullies A-OK. by Ice Cream Jonsey 07/09/2003, 4:52pm PDT NEW
        Stop! by I need clarification 07/09/2003, 6:34pm PDT NEW
            Edit! by Bill Dungsroman 07/11/2003, 11:44am PDT NEW
    Re: Video games still bad. Movies and bullies A-OK. by laudablepuss 07/09/2003, 5:54pm PDT NEW
        how about parents keeping a fully-stocked arsenal around the house? by FABIO 07/10/2003, 10:42am PDT NEW
            I think NOT owning a firearm should disqualify you from voting. Do your part. by Lizard_King 07/10/2003, 10:51am PDT NEW
                You are aware of a branch of government called the 'Judicial', are you not? by John 'Bryan' Adams 07/10/2003, 6:05pm PDT NEW
                    Rats! I was gonna say that. Instead, I'll say this: by I need clarification 07/10/2003, 10:26pm PDT NEW
                        or read my books! NT by John Grisham 07/10/2003, 10:33pm PDT NEW
                        Re: Rats! I was gonna say that. Instead, I'll say this: by Lizard_King 07/11/2003, 2:26pm PDT NEW
                            Dude, he's *SO* done with this post. NT by John 'Bryan' Adams 07/11/2003, 2:47pm PDT NEW
                                I liked the random "socialist medicine" bit myself. Lost Canadian, perchance? NT by Damocles 07/11/2003, 3:52pm PDT NEW
                                    Government medical program=socialist. by Lizard_King 07/12/2003, 2:32pm PDT NEW
                                        Trotsky and Stalin may hate each other, but both are still laughing at you by Damocles 07/14/2003, 12:02pm PDT NEW
                                            I like it when you make up things. It's funny. by Lizard_King 07/14/2003, 7:32pm PDT NEW
                                                Re: I like it when you make up things. It's funny. by Damocles 07/16/2003, 4:48am PDT NEW
                                                    Re: I like it when you make up things. It's funny. by Lizard_King 07/16/2003, 9:17pm PDT NEW
                                                        Thank you Ayn Rand, you can sit down and shut the fuck up now. by John 'Bryan' Adams 07/16/2003, 9:48pm PDT NEW
                                                            Yes, much better look for you than trying to say I'm wrong. NT by Lizard_King 07/16/2003, 10:08pm PDT NEW
                                                                I *did* say you were wrong. Idiot. NT by John 'Bryan' Adams 07/16/2003, 10:13pm PDT NEW
                                                                    Perhaps, but what you typed was "I am an angry fag" over and over. NT by Lizard_King 07/20/2003, 7:08pm PDT NEW
                                                                        ^^^ EVERYONE L@@K RIGHT HERE ^^^ by Lufteufel 07/20/2003, 7:53pm PDT NEW
                                                                            FUCK THAT WAS SO WORTH IT NT by Choson 07/20/2003, 7:55pm PDT NEW
                            This post is so OVER! It's so 1999, dude. by I need clarification 07/12/2003, 4:10pm PDT NEW
                                Re: This post is so OVER! It's so 1999, dude. by Lizard_King 07/12/2003, 8:35pm PDT NEW
                                    Re: This post is so OVER! It's so 1999, dude. by The Monopoly Guy 07/13/2003, 4:57am PDT NEW
                                        I see. by Lizard_King 07/13/2003, 2:44pm PDT NEW
                                            Re: I see. by Arbit 07/15/2003, 4:44pm PDT NEW
                                                She wanted me to do it. And the baby was asking for it. NT by Lizard_King 07/16/2003, 2:15am PDT NEW
                    Re: You are aware of a branch of government called the 'Judicial', are you not? by Lizard_King 07/11/2003, 2:17pm PDT NEW
                        Your inability to make yourself clear is not my fucking problem.. by John \'Bryan\' Adams 07/11/2003, 2:51pm PDT NEW
                            Cat Fight! NT by Sildenafil 07/11/2003, 3:19pm PDT NEW
                                I fucking hate you. by Nixon 07/12/2003, 2:33pm PDT NEW
                                    Then I have done my Job. NT by Sildenafil 07/12/2003, 4:20pm PDT NEW
                                I know you. You're that waiter from Tchotchkes NT by Entropy Stew 07/12/2003, 6:16pm PDT NEW
                                    Better than Jennifer Aniston NT by Sildenafil 07/12/2003, 6:50pm PDT NEW
                                        Better how, exactly? NT by Lizard_King 07/12/2003, 8:22pm PDT NEW
                                            Re: Better how, exactly? by Sildenafil 07/12/2003, 9:55pm PDT NEW
                                                Might as well be. You're already taking it up the ass from everyone here NT by Entropy Stew 07/12/2003, 10:17pm PDT NEW
                            If INC could understand it, it IS your problem. -NT- by Lizard_King 07/12/2003, 2:30pm PDT NEW
                                I retracted nothing, fag. by John 'Bryan' Adams 07/16/2003, 1:41pm PDT NEW
                                    I'm sorry, so your criticism of the argument I didn't make still stands? by Lizard_King 07/16/2003, 9:20pm PDT NEW
                                        In which I make a classy Lizard_King-stylin quip: by John \'Bryan\' Adams 07/16/2003, 9:50pm PDT NEW
                        Re: You are aware of a branch of government called the 'Judicial', are you not? by Damocles 07/11/2003, 4:01pm PDT NEW
                            Re: You are aware of a branch of government called the 'Judicial', are you not? by Lizard_King 07/12/2003, 2:29pm PDT NEW
                                Bloviate on, you shining star! by Damocles 07/14/2003, 11:54am PDT NEW
                                    Re: Bloviate on, you shining star! by I need clarification 07/14/2003, 12:20pm PDT NEW
                                        I...um...mostly agree. What the fuck are you up to? by Lizard_King 07/14/2003, 7:53pm PDT NEW
                                        Re: Bloviate on, you shining star! by Damocles 07/15/2003, 3:16pm PDT NEW
                                            One imperfect system for an even more imperfect one... by I need clarification 07/15/2003, 4:30pm PDT NEW
                                                Alright, now I'm really worried. But...yeah. NT by Lizard_King 07/16/2003, 2:18am PDT NEW
                                                Re: One imperfect system for an even more imperfect one... by Damocles 07/16/2003, 4:29am PDT NEW
                                    That was positively Vaginatorian. Bravo! NT by John 'Bryan' Adams 07/14/2003, 1:09pm PDT NEW
                                        Stop uttering her name! by FoK 07/14/2003, 1:16pm PDT NEW
                                            Vaginator, Vaginator, Motherfucking Vaginator. NT by John 'Bryan' Adams 07/14/2003, 1:19pm PDT NEW
                                                Pussy. NT by Lizard_King 07/14/2003, 7:53pm PDT NEW
                                                    She'd slamdunk your ass in about 30 seconds. NT by John 'Bryan' Adams 07/14/2003, 9:03pm PDT NEW
                                                        actually, didn't L_K show up soon after Vag left? by whydirt, caltrops braintrust 07/15/2003, 4:43pm PDT NEW
                                                            Re: actually, didn't L_K show up soon after Vag left? by Chairman Mao 07/15/2003, 5:15pm PDT NEW
                                                                I am the real Chairman Mao NT by Chairman Mao 07/15/2003, 5:58pm PDT NEW
                                                                    No, *I* am the real Chairman Mao NT by Chairman Mao 07/15/2003, 5:58pm PDT NEW
                                                                        Precisely. NT by Chairman Mao 07/15/2003, 5:59pm PDT NEW
                                                                Re: actually, didn't L_K show up soon after Vag left? by whydirt, caltrops braintrust 07/15/2003, 9:18pm PDT NEW
                                    Keep at it, tiny dancer. by Lizard_King 07/14/2003, 7:48pm PDT NEW
                                        You have no idea what a leftist is, do you? by Damocles 07/15/2003, 3:19pm PDT NEW
                                            As usual, you should make your accusations at a fucking mirror. NT by Lizard_King 07/16/2003, 2:19am PDT NEW
                                                I've heard better retorts on a playground NT by Damocles 07/16/2003, 4:50am PDT NEW
                                                    Perhaps you should stick to arguing there, then. NT by Lizard_King 07/16/2003, 9:20pm PDT NEW
                            Re: You are aware of a branch of government called the 'Judicial', are you not? by Lizard_King 07/12/2003, 2:32pm PDT NEW
                                Sorry about the double post. Back button on mouse reacts poorly with forums. NT by Lizard_King 07/12/2003, 2:33pm PDT NEW
 
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