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Re: You sure are smart. by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/16/2008, 9:19pm PDT
laudablepuss wrote:

Did I mention that Scotty brought a burn victim to the bridge? All the way from engineering? I did? Okay nevermind, I have plenty more. Speaking of shit you can't believe the director didn't reshoot, how about the guy who blinked his eyes closed after he was dead, right before Khan says "I will avenge yoooou"? Pretty embarassing. Or the prop in engineering that was killing Spock with radiation not being secured to the floor? Hey, why don't they have robots or something to do dangerous stuff like that anyway?

Have I won yet? Should I continue? (Warning: I'm not sure I can. :( )


Here is the thing, though - and yeah, Wrath of Khan had some silly parts. (The burn victim that Scotty brought forth was -- IIRC -- supposed to be his nephew or something. It's not mentioned in the movie, I don't think. There is no logical reason to bring him to the bridge and if Meyer cuts the scene explaining who the hell he is in relation to Mr. Scott, it's dumb to have him anywhere on the ship later.) (Especially since -- this is a whole other thread -- but Trek NEEDS and has always needed some younger actors when they were doing the TV shows, so that there can be one guy in his athletic prime when they get around to doing the movies. First Contact got around that with Lt. Hawk, but they should have had Wheaton shooting people in the face in 9 and 10. Wheaton definitely should have had Riker's fight at the end of Nemesis, which was possibly the most unbelievable part of the entire movie. But again, that is a whole other thread.)

So while you are correct that Wrath of Khan had some pure cheese, it works better than Nemesis because every single character in the movie in WoK is iconic. And I don't just mean the minor characters like Scotty and Chekov, who will be a part of our culture in the same way we associate Thor and Loki with the Norse - Wrath of Khan worked because they got lucky with the original series, in that Ricardo Montalban:

1) Played a guy in Space Seed that was absolutely a match for Kirk AND Spock
2) Became a huge star in his own right
3) Was in the public consciousness because of Fantasy Island
4) Didn't let himself go
5) Was available for WoK

I would say that Nemesis would have had a chance of working, had anyone bothered to develop an antagonist for Picard and Data in the 7 years of TNG. Q doesn't count, because he can "do anything." The Borg, by their nature, don't lend themselves to a single charismatic cult of personality like Montalban. There was also that girl archaeologist, who doesn't get the nod because she's a girl, which really just leaves Professor Moriarty and Lore.

Moriarty's out, because the guys in charge of Trek at the end probably had no idea where he came from. Lore would have been the best choice... but hey, Spiner didn't want to do Data any more. Nemesis would have been a thousand times better if a CGI Lore was the villain. People would have been quoting that movie as much as they quote Wrath of Khan, because Spiner could make anything sound devious, clever and cruel when he was "being" Lore.

Instead, for Nemesis, we get some tool who never appeared in the original show. And I am not even saying he's a bad actor, he was fine with what he had to work with - but Christ, ever since the scene where Kirk got his bifocals, an underlying theme of Star Trek is that it's okay to grow old. Nobody was going to buy Picard being in danger from some kid, even if he was his own clone. Again, not that the guys in charge of Trek at the end had any appreciation for the themes of Trek movies #2-#6.

I am not going to say that the emotional reaction resonating from our culture, the 60s, the 70s, William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy and Montalban makes any sense. Who doesn't hate either the 60s or 70s? But the three best Trek films (WoK, TUC and FC) tap into antagonists that were fleshed out in the shows. The worst, like #5, simply make up some dude we know nothing about. As we are sitting there being told things in the first act of a movie we are expected to go OMG, instead of previously having been shown things in the TV series. And to no surprise, the random Hollywood screenwriter writing a shitty Trek movie is inferior to the shared North American mythology of the Star Trek TV shows.

(And, of course, all of it is ultimately irrelevant because the highest grossing Trek film was the one about the dolphins.)


the dark and gritty...Ice Cream Jonsey!
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I personally guarantee the new Star Trek will be awesome. by Last 10/16/2008, 9:27am PDT
    what's the enterprise doing with a NT by steve jobs looking character? 10/16/2008, 12:22pm PDT
        That's Captain Kirk, he captains the ship. by Last 10/16/2008, 12:46pm PDT
            And you know a Star Trek move that features Kirk Mountainclimbing has to be good NT by Mischief Maker 10/16/2008, 12:49pm PDT
    You're being sarcastic, right? by Mischief Maker 10/16/2008, 12:47pm PDT
    Handheld cam shots of hip suburban Kirk and Spock talking about their favorite b by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 1:12pm PDT
        Re: Handheld cam shots of hip suburban Kirk and Spock talking about their favori by Last 10/16/2008, 1:24pm PDT
            Because they are about the movie? NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 2:31pm PDT
            heh. . . Sulu NT by swallow. . . heh 10/17/2008, 3:44pm PDT
    I will guarantee Last's guarantee by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/16/2008, 1:33pm PDT
        Re: I will guarantee Last's guarantee by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 2:20pm PDT
            Nemsis was without any merit by FABIO 10/16/2008, 3:07pm PDT
                I'm aware of your (wrong) opinion. NT by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 3:13pm PDT
            Here is why Nemesis sucked: an opinion by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/16/2008, 3:30pm PDT
                Also, to calibrate by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/16/2008, 3:31pm PDT
                Wasn't there a scene where Picard and them were stealing the dunebuggy... by Last 10/16/2008, 4:05pm PDT
                Re: Here is why Nemesis sucked: an opinion by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 4:14pm PDT
                    Re: Here is why Nemesis sucked: an opinion by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 4:17pm PDT
                        Re: Here is why Nemesis sucked: an opinion by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 4:19pm PDT
                            The Enterprise is almost totally destroyed and a main character sacrifices thems by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 5:36pm PDT
                                Actually perhaps they ARE very different movies. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 5:47pm PDT
                                    Re: Actually perhaps they ARE very different movies. by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 5:55pm PDT
                                        Re: Actually perhaps they ARE very different movies. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 6:35pm PDT
                                            Re: Actually perhaps they ARE very different movies. by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 7:08pm PDT
                                                Judging by your post here, if you liked Nemesis, you'll love Voyager. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 7:23pm PDT
                                                    Here's a Star Trek episode that laudablepuss thinks is really great. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 7:27pm PDT
                                                        That's the victory bell ringing. Thanks, it was fun. NT by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 7:32pm PDT
                                                            So you actually liked that episode? No wonder you don't understand why Nemesis s NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 7:37pm PDT
                                                    Re: Judging by your post here, if you liked Nemesis, you'll love Voyager. by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 7:31pm PDT
                                                        Re: Judging by your post here, if you liked Nemesis, you'll love Voyager. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 7:37pm PDT
                                                            Thought you could slip this in there, huh? by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 9:18pm PDT
                                                                Re: Thought you could slip this in there, huh? by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 9:33pm PDT
                                                                    Re: Thought you could slip this in there, huh? by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 10:02pm PDT
                                                                        Re: Thought you could slip this in there, huh? by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 10:58pm PDT
                                Re: The Enterprise is almost totally destroyed and a main character sacrifices t by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 5:52pm PDT
                                    You must not have if you don't see how Nemesis ripped off Wrath of Khan. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 6:18pm PDT
                                        DS9 isn't Trek. It's a Babylon 5 ripoff. NT by Mischief Maker 10/16/2008, 6:27pm PDT
                                            You watched Babylon 5? NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 6:31pm PDT
                                            Also DS9 is infinitely superior to Babylon 5 for AT LEAST one reason. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 6:53pm PDT
                                                Worf NT by Fortinbras 10/16/2008, 8:56pm PDT
                                                Re: Also DS9 is infinitely superior to Babylon 5 for AT LEAST one reason. by Cannibal Dave 10/16/2008, 11:05pm PDT
                                                Also, Jake Sisco NT by Guy Desperately Trying to Fit In 10/16/2008, 11:18pm PDT
                                                    Nog! NT by Fag 454 10/16/2008, 11:20pm PDT
                                                        Post leg amputation. NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/17/2008, 12:09am PDT
                                        You sure are smart. by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 6:54pm PDT
                                            I just want to emphasize by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 7:02pm PDT
                                            Re: You sure are smart. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 7:04pm PDT
                                                Re: You sure are smart. by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 7:11pm PDT
                                            Re: You sure are smart. by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/16/2008, 9:19pm PDT
                                                Re: You sure are smart. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 9:34pm PDT
                                                First Contact was horrible and you know it. by Mischief Maker 10/17/2008, 6:32am PDT
                                                    I agree about the borg queen, and occasional cheesy moments. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/17/2008, 11:30am PDT
                                                Here's a much simpler reason by FABIO 10/17/2008, 2:44pm PDT
                                            When I got on the elevator, someone had already pushed the damn bridge button NT by Scotty 10/17/2008, 4:33pm PDT
                                                We need a Caltrops ombudsman so I don't miss posts like this one NT by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/23/2008, 7:35pm PDT
                                                    I agree, that's a good post. by Fussbett 10/23/2008, 9:37pm PDT
                                                        DS9 never got bad, except for the Ferengi episodes, those pretty much sucked. NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/23/2008, 9:44pm PDT
                                        Goddamn, Creex. Goddamn NT by Souffle of Pain 04/08/2009, 8:28pm PDT
                                Re: The Enterprise is almost totally destroyed and a main character sacrifices by FABIO 10/17/2008, 12:28am PDT
                                    Re: The Enterprise is almost totally destroyed and a main character sacrifices by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/17/2008, 12:50am PDT
                The only single good part of the movie and of B4. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 4:16pm PDT
                pictoral review of Nemisis that I happen to agree with by Weyoun Voidbringer 10/16/2008, 4:20pm PDT
                    Did you sleep well? I did; I'm 12 hours closer to death! NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 5:40pm PDT
                    That pretty much sums up why it's objectively awful by FABIO 10/17/2008, 12:07am PDT
                        yeah that's why I posted it >:( NT by Weyoun Voidbringer 10/18/2008, 10:19am PDT
            Laudable, the ultimate troll? by Cannibal Dave 10/17/2008, 4:12pm PDT
                Re: Laudable, the ultimate troll? by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/17/2008, 4:16pm PDT
                    Re: Laudable, the ultimate troll? by Mischief Maker 10/17/2008, 4:25pm PDT
        My favorite is the one with the whales. :( NT by Fullofkittens 11/29/2008, 5:01pm PST
            That's what my sister calls it. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 11/29/2008, 5:07pm PST
    Are they trying to bring the Smallville treatment to another nerd franchise now? NT by FABIO 10/16/2008, 3:07pm PDT
        Re: Are they trying to bring the Smallville treatment to another nerd franchise by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 3:17pm PDT
            Stupid apostrophe. :( NT by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 3:17pm PDT
            Meh. Focus on characters and story arcs are what killed the Trek franchise. NT by Mischief Maker 10/16/2008, 4:30pm PDT
                No, Voyager and Enterprise and being on UPN killed Trek. NT by Horrible Gelatinous Blob 10/16/2008, 5:52pm PDT
                    Pineapple cake killed Enterprise NT by Entropy Stew 10/18/2008, 2:56am PDT
                        "The weapon" killed Enterprise by FABIO 10/18/2008, 2:54pm PDT
                            There wasn't really any point in making Enterprise, period. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/18/2008, 3:37pm PDT
                            You don't understand, it was an analogy for September the Eleventh. by Jerry Whorebach 10/18/2008, 3:57pm PDT
            Also, Nosferatu builds an orbital laser beam to blow up Vulcan by Mischief Maker 11/26/2008, 7:26am PST
    ok, I am interested and hopeful by Weyoun Voidbringer 10/16/2008, 4:25pm PDT
        Re: ok, I am interested and hopeful by I need clarification 10/16/2008, 11:27pm PDT
            Maybe slightly below average with some good parts. NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/17/2008, 12:01am PDT
    Next time, on a very special JJ Abrams Star trek (on the WB) NT by Fortinbras 10/16/2008, 8:51pm PDT
    It's not like the original Chekov and Sulu needed the work... OH WAIT :( by Jerry Whorebach 10/18/2008, 2:12am PDT
        You misunderstand, Doohan only fingered her. *BA DUMP PAASSSH* NT by Last 10/18/2008, 10:52am PDT
    The new Enterprise is terrible. :( NT by laudablepuss 11/12/2008, 7:17pm PST
        almost as terrible as the tos enterprise by Weyoun Voidbringer 11/12/2008, 9:09pm PST
            TOS enterprise doesn't look enough like a cock for you? by Mischief Maker 11/18/2008, 8:09pm PST
                That's . . . bizarre. Does somebody really think this? NT by laudablepuss 11/25/2008, 6:59pm PST
    Nobody wants to weigh in on the new trailer? by motherfuckerfoodeater 11/18/2008, 3:54pm PST
        I like how Nosferatu has a switchblade scepter. He's the bad guy, right? NT by Mischief Maker 11/18/2008, 4:40pm PST
        The stuff exploding was neat. NT by laudablepuss 11/18/2008, 5:01pm PST
        Tween Kirk was a retarded asshole? Cornfield shipyard? Otherwise, looks ok. NT by Last 11/18/2008, 5:16pm PST
            The Apollo program was the final word on spaceship construction, apparently. NT by laudablepuss 11/18/2008, 6:26pm PST
                Seaquest, Enterprise, and now JJ Abrams Star Trek all start with cornfields NT by Fortinbras 11/18/2008, 7:32pm PST
        I wann be on the spaceship, dad! by FABIO 11/18/2008, 11:23pm PST
            That story is easily as good as the Doom movie. NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 11/18/2008, 11:56pm PST
        Apparently the version I first saw was edited for vomit prevention. by Mischief Maker 11/25/2008, 6:53pm PST
            Hey wanna play Thelma and Louise ha ha waaaaaaa look out look out look out look NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 11/26/2008, 4:13am PST
    So in anticipation, what's your vote for the all-time worst TOS episode? by Mischief Maker 11/23/2008, 8:25pm PST
        The Halloween episode was pretty bad. NT by Jerry Whorebach 11/23/2008, 8:52pm PST
        spocks brain and that other one by Weyoun Voidbringer 11/23/2008, 9:26pm PST
            The Conscience of the King. Horrible. :( by laudablepuss 11/24/2008, 5:15pm PST
                A ringa ding ding ding.......... ding. NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 11/24/2008, 5:16pm PST
                what halloween one? by Weyoun Voidbringer 11/24/2008, 5:18pm PST
                    Re: what halloween one? by laudablepuss 11/24/2008, 5:54pm PST
                        Re: what halloween one? by krd 11/24/2008, 8:05pm PST
                            "The cat is the most ruthless, most terrifying of animals." NT by Spock 11/24/2008, 8:12pm PST
    Early reviews are positive. by Last 04/08/2009, 9:18am PDT
        Re: Early reviews are positive. by Souffle of Pain 04/08/2009, 8:31pm PDT
    94% on Rotten Tomatoes with 109 reviews. NT by Last 05/07/2009, 11:51am PDT
        Star Trek: First Contact - 91% GO SEE IT FOLKS NT by Fortinbras 05/08/2009, 9:17pm PDT
            sometimes RT is right (then again they gave over 90% to michael moore's "films") NT by Weyoun Voidbringer 05/09/2009, 12:41am PDT
 
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