Forum Overview :: Laurence Fishburne's Dance Dance Revolution
 
The purpose of a Koan is not to be profound. by Mischief Bodhisattva 10/03/2011, 9:43am PDT
The purpose of a koan is similar to the Socratic method. If you want to break a person of a dysfunctional belief, the most effective way is to lead them towards making that conclusion themselves. Simply telling them head-on that their belief is wrong will at best give them a purely intellectual understanding, at worst make them hostile and defensive.

It's like when you're telling a joke, the audience must have the "Aha!" moment themselves or they won't laugh. If you dryly explain the joke, no laughter. If you ever watch Chris Rock's standup, you'll notice that when he's telling a group of jokes, he's constantly repeating the premise in between, (eg. "I'm not talking about rich, I'm talking about wealth"), to make certain the audience isn't lost once it's time for the punchline.

My first year of law school my criminal procedure II class was taught by Walter Dickey, a man of great distinction in the legal community who, among other things, ran the Wisconsin prison system for several years. I'm not saying that everything he said was true, but he was a man whose had a great deal more experience than a room full of snot-nosed 1Ls. However, Prof. Dickey did not use the Socratic method when teaching the class, he just challenged our beliefs about law in the real world, the actual effectiveness of prison sentences, truth-in-sentencing laws, and justice in general head-on. My classmates hated him! Ooh! They had rage steam shooting out their ears as they shuffled out of class and grumbled things along the lines of, "He thinks he knows everything!" What the hell did they know with their 4 years of sitting in history or poli-sci class? I'm not claiming to be morally superior, I just happened to be a science major undergraduate, so I had already been thoroughly trained in not taking my personal beliefs that seriously. All in all a very illuminating experience, though not for the reasons intended.

In any case, the porridge bowl koan was a reference to Chapter 6 of the Diamond Sutra, where the Buddha says:

[A]nyone who seeks total Enlightenment should discard not only all conceptions of their own selfhood, of other selves, or of a universal self, but they should also discard all notions of the non-existence of such concepts.

When the Buddha explains these things using such concepts and ideas, people should remember the unreality of all such concepts and ideas. They should recall that in teaching spiritual truths the Buddha always uses these concepts and ideas in the way that a raft is used to cross a river. Once the river has been crossed over, the raft is of no more use, and should be discarded. These arbitrary concepts and ideas about spiritual things need to be explained to us as we seek to attain Enlightenment. However, ultimately these arbitrary conceptions can be discarded.


The student here doubtlessly knew the Diamond Sutra by heart at this point. The Master could have just said, "You have learned the concepts of Zen well, now it is the time for you to abandon the concepts of Zen in order to reach Enlightenment, as stated in Chapter 6 of the Diamond Sutra," but this would have left the student with a shallow understanding at best, an unconscious rebellion against the Master's guidance at worst. To put it in geekier terms, the student wouldn't Grok the Master's meaning. So instead the Master stated this concept in strange symbolic language. The student then had to puzzle through what the hell the Master was telling him until he had the "Aha!" moment of realizing the time had come to abandon the concepts of Zen. He had crossed the river, so to speak, and it was time to leave the raft behind.

Note that not all koans are meant to be solved in an instant. Some koans are meant to be meditated on over the course of years before the student has the "Aha!" moment.

It's an unfortunate cultural artifact here in the US that so many people spout out koans completely out of context. Without any background knowledge they're just gibberish. Like this:

A Zen Master and his student were meditating in the woods when an ancient rotten tree suddenly came crashing down near them. The student remarked how ironic it would have been if the tree had fallen onto them as they were sitting there meditating.

"It would have been fortunate!" retorted the Master.

"Why?"

"If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
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guys I think I might have figured out what I want to do for grad school. by ndd 09/24/2011, 10:59pm PDT NEW
    Who posted all these Granny and Yaoi Porn pictures all over the church?!! NT by Mischief Maker 09/24/2011, 11:16pm PDT NEW
        you're just jealous by ndd 09/24/2011, 11:19pm PDT NEW
            ARE YOU READY FOR THIS POWERRRRR by Gutsby 09/25/2011, 12:11am PDT NEW
                Re: ARE YOU READY FOR THIS POWERRRRR by ndd 09/25/2011, 12:27am PDT NEW
                    Oh by the way read Day of the Oprichnik by Vladimir Sorokin. NT by Gutsby 09/25/2011, 7:12am PDT NEW
                        i'll look for it, but also from the reviews, etc. etc. "russia's drift towards by ndd 09/26/2011, 1:16am PDT NEW
                            Don't worry, that's a tiny part of it and exactly the most obvious thing to say. NT by Gutsby 09/26/2011, 4:48am PDT NEW
                    Delicious. I need that in mp3 form NT by Entropy Stew 09/25/2011, 5:34pm PDT NEW
                        you'll have to strip it off the video :( the album was released on vinyl and it NT by refuses to show up online -ndd 09/26/2011, 1:09am PDT NEW
            Re: you're just jealous by Mischief Maker 09/25/2011, 2:12am PDT NEW
                bitch are you for real by ndd 09/25/2011, 2:57am PDT NEW
                    Re: bitch are you for real by Mischief Maker 09/25/2011, 2:16pm PDT NEW
                        Re: bitch are you for real by ndd 09/25/2011, 3:07pm PDT NEW
                            Everything is dumb, so just do nothing. NT by Worm 09/25/2011, 4:17pm PDT NEW
                                Nihilism will only get you so far NT by Entropy Stew 09/25/2011, 5:50pm PDT NEW
                                    It certainly won't get you a million dollars, Dude (at least Nazism is an ethos) NT by Walter Sobchek 09/26/2011, 8:04pm PDT NEW
                                        If you want to make a million dollars, you should start your own religion. NT by L.Ron Hubbard 09/26/2011, 8:15pm PDT NEW
                            Re: bitch are you for real by Mischief Maker 09/25/2011, 5:15pm PDT NEW
                                Re: bitch are you for real by ndd 09/25/2011, 5:47pm PDT NEW
                                    Re: bitch are you for real by Mischief Maker 09/25/2011, 9:53pm PDT NEW
                                        Re: bitch are you for real by ndd 09/25/2011, 11:59pm PDT NEW
                                            I suggest flashpowder and a secret trapdoor for whenever you get questioned. by Mischief Maker 09/26/2011, 8:45am PDT NEW
                                                this by Fullofkittens 09/26/2011, 9:40am PDT NEW
                                                    Thanks for that enlightening post, Reverend Strawman NT by Mysterio 09/30/2011, 7:40pm PDT NEW
                                                        Who's the patron saint of weak sarcasm? NT by Mischief Maker 09/30/2011, 7:57pm PDT NEW
                                                        It's a conversation I've had with many IRL religious friends by Fullofkittens 10/01/2011, 5:33am PDT NEW
                                                            Sure you did. I give up. Fuck this forum. NT by Mysterio 10/01/2011, 6:30am PDT NEW
                                                but you've spent the whole time by ndd 09/26/2011, 10:26am PDT NEW
                                                    Wait a second, what religious idea ISN'T made up shit? NT by Worm 09/26/2011, 11:14am PDT NEW
                                                    Zseni is correct. MM is putting words in her mouth. NT by Caltrops Referee 09/26/2011, 12:15pm PDT NEW
                                                        don't stop him! it's hilariously revealing. by up with pod people 09/26/2011, 12:18pm PDT NEW
                                                        Her silence equals assent. NT by Mischief Maker 09/26/2011, 3:51pm PDT NEW
                                                            I hate to stop you when you're just getting warmed up with your "rape 'n reason" by ndd 09/26/2011, 8:41pm PDT NEW
                                                                *settles down* by Mischief Maker 09/26/2011, 9:05pm PDT NEW
                                                                    Re: *settles down* by ndd 09/26/2011, 10:37pm PDT NEW
                                                                        Re: *settles down* by Mischief Maker 09/27/2011, 6:28pm PDT NEW
                                                                            Re: *settles down* by ndd 09/27/2011, 7:01pm PDT NEW
                                                                                Re: *settles down* by Mischief Maker 09/27/2011, 9:07pm PDT NEW
                                                                                    Re: *settles down* by ndd 09/27/2011, 9:15pm PDT NEW
                                                                                        *dies of boredom* NT by Mischief Maker 09/27/2011, 11:17pm PDT NEW
                                                    Then what ARE your ideas? NT by Mischief Maker 09/26/2011, 3:46pm PDT NEW
                                                Religious practice is an ancient and profound matter of ordering the world. by Gutsby 09/26/2011, 6:23pm PDT NEW
                                                    Galileo and the Inquisition coexisted so comfortably! NT by Mischief Maker 09/26/2011, 7:09pm PDT NEW
                                                        Rebels challenging the social order killed? By a designated authoritarian force? by Gutsby 09/26/2011, 7:23pm PDT NEW
                                                        Man, where else but Caltrops could I go to listen to a white guy with a silver by spoon in his ass talk shit about re 09/26/2011, 8:15pm PDT NEW
                                                            Don't like it? Go watch the Presidential debates. NT by Mischief Maker 09/27/2011, 10:16pm PDT NEW
                                                    Re: Religious practice is an ancient and profound matter of ordering the world. by laudablepuss 09/27/2011, 3:08pm PDT NEW
                                                        Re: Religious practice is an ancient and profound matter of ordering the world. by laudablepuss 09/27/2011, 3:17pm PDT NEW
                                                            Shto eto takoi? by Gutsby 09/27/2011, 5:03pm PDT NEW
                                                                Religion is not an indispensible part of a balanced life by laudablepuss 09/27/2011, 10:05pm PDT NEW
                                                                    You should be dead. Just think about that in between your spergings NT by Mysterio 09/29/2011, 8:03am PDT NEW
                                                                        Wow I never thought of it that way! by laudablepuss 09/29/2011, 8:23am PDT NEW
                                                                            hahaha i feel bad for loling NT by ndd 09/29/2011, 12:03pm PDT NEW
                                                                            Conclusion: science saved your life by Entropy Stew 09/30/2011, 1:37pm PDT NEW
                                                                    Re: Religion is not an indispensible part of a balanced life by Gutsby 09/30/2011, 7:30am PDT NEW
                                                                    Re: Religion is not an indispensible part of a balanced life by duh 09/30/2011, 10:29am PDT NEW
                                    Re: bitch are you for real by I need clarification 09/25/2011, 10:16pm PDT NEW
                            "Growing it" is one of the worst abuses of language perpetrated by business dink by motherfuckerfoodeater 09/25/2011, 5:17pm PDT NEW
                    Re: bitch are you for real by laudablepuss 09/25/2011, 11:10pm PDT NEW
                        Re: bitch are you for real by ndd 09/26/2011, 12:17am PDT NEW
                now that the other thread is done and you lost by up with pod people 09/30/2011, 10:15am PDT NEW
                    Re: now that the other thread is done and you lost by Mischief Maker 09/30/2011, 7:55pm PDT NEW
    Re: guys I think I might have figured out what I want to do for grad school. by Mysterio 09/25/2011, 12:25am PDT NEW
        Keep us informed of your progress. I'm a stock broker. by This is Chris's Blood 09/25/2011, 1:39am PDT NEW
            how do you piss off a trader? introduce him to chicks as a "stock broker" by august and everything after 09/26/2011, 8:27pm PDT NEW
        I thought you were all sys admins. by Fullofkittens 09/25/2011, 3:34pm PDT NEW
            I said he played American football :/ by Mysterio 09/25/2011, 4:01pm PDT NEW
    THAT SOUNDS FAB by Ray of Light 09/25/2011, 7:47pm PDT NEW
    Unitarianism is a sad religion for people caught in the bear trap of 20/21st cen by Vested Id 09/26/2011, 1:34am PDT NEW
        Re: Unitarianism is a sad religion for people caught in the bear trap of 20/21st by ndd 09/26/2011, 2:45am PDT NEW
            unitarians are just episcopalians who jerk off to alvin toffler NT by august and everything after 09/26/2011, 8:34pm PDT NEW
                a hand job is still a job, august NT by ndd 09/26/2011, 9:01pm PDT NEW
                    unitarians are like vassar girls though. won't even take the glove off. NT by august and everything after 09/26/2011, 9:04pm PDT NEW
                        ew there are girls who take the glove off?! NT by ndd 09/26/2011, 9:08pm PDT NEW
                            really trashy ones. like the ones who didn't even go to boarding school. by august and everything after 09/26/2011, 10:42pm PDT NEW
                                THERE ARE DUDES WHO WILL FINGERBANG ME WHILE I WATCH LEVERAGE?! NT by ndd 09/26/2011, 10:51pm PDT NEW
                                    extra vigorously when the black hacker with the buff arms is onscreen by august and everything after 09/27/2011, 2:49am PDT NEW
                                    I'm in school to become a Catholic deacon. I think you should go for it. by Just Another Mysterious Stranger 09/27/2011, 4:55pm PDT NEW
                                        Re: I'm in school to become a Catholic deacon. I think you should go for it. by Mischief Maker 09/27/2011, 5:03pm PDT NEW
                                            Zing! Now if only there were some funny YouTubes making fun of lawyers, I NT by Oh, wait. 09/28/2011, 6:27am PDT NEW
    go to yale divinity by august and everything after 09/26/2011, 8:28pm PDT NEW
    Re: guys I think I might have figured out what I want to do for grad school. by Hans Clastorp 09/27/2011, 7:02pm PDT NEW
        Re: guys I think I might have figured out what I want to do for grad school. by Mysterio 09/28/2011, 4:03pm PDT NEW
            Re: guys I think I might have figured out what I want to do for grad school. by Mysterio 09/28/2011, 11:30pm PDT NEW
                nice how you skipped the description of a priest's actual job and how shitty it NT by Mysterio 09/30/2011, 7:09pm PDT NEW
                    You're right, my research can stop with that anecdote. Off to fashion school ta. NT by ndd 09/30/2011, 8:08pm PDT NEW
                        Re: Off to fashion school ta. by Mischief Maker 09/30/2011, 8:15pm PDT NEW
                            Re: Off to fashion school ta. by ndd 09/30/2011, 10:32pm PDT NEW
                                I'm sad for you by Mischief Maker 10/01/2011, 12:44am PDT NEW
                                    Your myopia is astonishing. by Gutsby 10/01/2011, 2:19am PDT NEW
                                        A lot of time in church is spent talking about dragon fights. by fucking nobody 10/01/2011, 6:39am PDT NEW
                                        The theme was "wonder," captain angry pants. NT by Mischief Maker 10/01/2011, 8:17am PDT NEW
                                    How can you be sorry for someone you haven't listened to yet?! by ndd 10/01/2011, 9:43am PDT NEW
                                        Perhaps a parable would work better here. by Mischief Maker 10/02/2011, 2:32pm PDT NEW
                                            This was an insulting and unwarranted pile of condescension. by ndd 10/02/2011, 3:51pm PDT NEW
                                                Emperor Liang Wu Di responded pretty much the same way. by Mischief Bodhisattva 10/02/2011, 4:16pm PDT NEW
                                                    Re: Emperor Liang Wu Di responded pretty much the same way. by ndd 10/02/2011, 9:19pm PDT NEW
                                            Student asks master for profound answer. Master says literally anything. NT by SO PROFOUND. 0______0 10/03/2011, 6:33am PDT NEW
                                                The purpose of a Koan is not to be profound. by Mischief Bodhisattva 10/03/2011, 9:43am PDT NEW
                                                    Framing anything in the context of Zen is the best way to lose an argument NT by Entropy Stew 10/03/2011, 11:18am PDT NEW
                                                        I'm the best!!! by Mischief Bodhisattva 10/03/2011, 11:27am PDT NEW
                                                            you're a Cable who doesn't know he's a Cable by Mysterio 10/03/2011, 1:15pm PDT NEW
                                                                I'm sorry I offended you, Anonyfag. by Mischief Shai-hulud 10/03/2011, 2:04pm PDT NEW
                                                                    Re: I'm sorry I offended you, Anonyfag. by Louis C.K. 10/03/2011, 2:34pm PDT NEW
                                                                        Try Andy Kaufman. NT by Mischief Maker 10/04/2011, 11:22pm PDT NEW
                                                                            You're already Andy Kaufman in this thread, what with the wrestling women NT by Entropy Stew 10/04/2011, 11:47pm PDT NEW
                                                                            It's true, I found my audience solely by behaving smugly in deep obscurity by Andy Kaufman 10/05/2011, 4:35am PDT NEW
                                                        particularly when you're vehemently arguing against religion. by up with pod people 10/03/2011, 1:07pm PDT NEW
                                                            NAH. NT by Mischief Shai-hulud 10/03/2011, 1:59pm PDT NEW
                                                            Particularly when you're vehemently arguing, period by Entropy Stew 10/04/2011, 2:25pm PDT NEW
                                                                Ya think? by Mischief Maker 10/04/2011, 8:36pm PDT NEW
                                                        This has been a known problem for 1500 years by Mysterio 10/03/2011, 1:13pm PDT NEW
                                                            *Devilhorns* NT by Mischief Bodhisattva 10/03/2011, 1:59pm PDT NEW
                                    Re: I'm sad for you by N 10/01/2011, 1:03pm PDT NEW
                                        Decrying romance... only to reembrace it in the very next paragraph by Mysterio 10/01/2011, 4:20pm PDT NEW
                                            Ha ha, sneering at science because it's too mainstream, like Disneyland. by Jerry Whorebach 10/01/2011, 5:15pm PDT NEW
                                                Science is cool. They are not. by Mysterio 10/01/2011, 6:03pm PDT NEW
        Re: guys I think I might have figured out what I want to do for grad school. by ndd 09/28/2011, 11:38pm PDT NEW
            Re: guys I think I might have figured out what I want to do for grad school. by Just Another Mysterious Stranger 09/29/2011, 6:44pm PDT NEW
                I've told jokes about owning my own Voltron! NT by YESSSSSSSS! 09/29/2011, 7:05pm PDT NEW
                Re: guys I think I might have figured out what I want to do for grad school. by ndd 09/29/2011, 10:34pm PDT NEW
    True story: my mom used to be the pastor of a church like that. by Fullofkittens 09/29/2011, 7:50pm PDT NEW
        Re: True story: my mom used to be the pastor of a church like that. by ndd 09/29/2011, 10:15pm PDT NEW
    this is soooo stupid by Mysterio 09/29/2011, 7:51pm PDT NEW
        Re: this is soooo stupid by ndd 09/29/2011, 10:00pm PDT NEW
            i want to be a petty tyrant but managing an applebee's would be gauche wat do??? NT by Mysterio 09/30/2011, 2:09pm PDT NEW
                Re: i want to be a petty tyrant but by ndd 09/30/2011, 4:39pm PDT NEW
                what you're too good for appleby's? NT by august and everything after 10/01/2011, 5:20pm PDT NEW
    By the way, Ron Rosenbaum is an idiot. by laudablepuss 10/03/2011, 8:40pm PDT NEW
        I've never heard of this person before but this was a good post by ndd 10/04/2011, 2:17pm PDT NEW
            Sounds good to me NT by laudablepuss 10/05/2011, 9:32am PDT NEW
 
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