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by fabio 06/05/2012, 8:02pm PDT |
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But compared to it, the rest of science fantasy is what the rest of regular fantasy is to The Grey Mouser books, a goddamn embarrassment.
Arbit wrote:
- Characters are constantly whispering to themselves how smart/subtle/skilled/awesome the other characters are and how mad complex the plot is. Perhaps I'm just unable to separate the book from the author these days, but whenever characters start going on about the subtle genius of the plots and the feints within feints within feints I can't help but see this as Herbert penetrating the 4th wall with his penis and bludgeoning my face with it.
This didn't bother me much. Seemed like it was just there as an introduction to subtext for conversationally challenged nerds. Its saving grace is the fact that it's not merely an informed attribute. If you took away the inner thoughts describing everything, you would still have meaningful dialog full of subtle veiled threats.
- The shields vs projectile vs stabby does not make a lot of sense. First, I don't see how an unshielded knife fighter could possibly win against a shielded one. Shields deflect quick slashes and stabs, obviously, but its also implied that high impact weapons like artillery are useless against a shielded person, so you can't punch a shielded guy either. Spinning around rapidly and windmilling your arms should essentially make you invincible. So how are the Fremen kicking the shit out of shielded Sardaukar, let alone Harkonnen conscripts? Secondly, if shields aren't used in the deep desert because they attract sandworms, why doesn't everyone revert back to guns? At one point Thufir Hawat (the Atreides Mentat Assassin if you don't remember) gets owned instantly by a "slow pellet stunner" - you would think everyone would be carrying one of those after that point, or a least a Glock or something? This probably sounds like sci-fi nerdrage on the level of "but you can't hear any soooound in space" but really, I'm trying to envision these fights in my head and basically it's ending up looking like one side is sitting stock still while the other slowly pushes a knife into their faces.
Or the most glaring logic hole: the atomic blast whenever the smallest hand laser hit a shield. You'd think they'd base every weapon around that. Why bother with the massive plot of invasion and sabotage when they could have just had one Harkonnen suicide bomber fire a laser at the palace shield?
I think the whole thing was just an allegory for the cold war conflict. Two sides dare not use their strongest weapons lest they annihilate each other so they resort to lower tech proxy wars and guerrilla fighters. That has to be it because otherwise it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.
- I can buy the Bene Gesserit powers being the product of superhuman focus and breeding, but achieving the crazy heights of supersoldierdom exhibited in the book simply through extra hardcore training is a little hard to swallow. It smacks of DBZ power level horseshit, where Sardaukar have trained really hard and have achieved a power level of 3,000 and so can kill 30 normal soldiers, but Fremen have trained extra hard so they get 9,000 and kick the shit out of everyone with near-impunity. I think I'm venturing too far into the realm of the over analyzing sci-fi nerd here, so I'll stop.
A similar clumsy allegory of empire in decline.
Let's talk about my problems with Dune: everything to do with Paul and the Fremen. Yes, I get that their tribal closeness and upfront way of resolving power struggles are in total contrast to the life of veiled skullduggery and political maneuvering that Paul knew. So why is over half the book taken up by it? You have a much more interesting story of the lingering power struggles within the houses, the Baron, and the Emperor, and you skimp out on it in order to make room for Paul acid trip #358. Whatever happened to Thufir's plot to play Feyd and the Baron off of each other? What was the deal with Count Fenrig? Feyd's daughter? None of it resolved.
Speaking of goddamn embarrassments, this got me thinking again of what an amateur hour Dune ripoff Game of Thrones is. You have the offspring of a murdered noble exiled to the desert, shacking up with a feared race of warrior tribesmen, advised by an old knight of their father's, only to discover that they have a magical power that makes them a revered mother and gives them a secret weapon with which to take back their throne. Meanwhile the "good" house lord is killed by the "bad" house lord after being betrayed by a third party military. It's full of speeches that sound clever to dumb people (you can't find a single promotion or summary of the thing without some faux profound quote accompanying it) as it tries to ape the subtext of Dune but it's as painful as going through a Mass Effect dialog wheel.
BUT at least the 2nd season focuses on the infighting of nations instead of the desert messiah. Am I the only one who always wonders what could have been if Dune had done the same? |
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So I reread Dune. by Arbit 06/05/2012, 6:31pm PDT
Don't continue. Stop right there. Trust me. NT by Mischief Maker 06/05/2012, 7:11pm PDT
The second and third books are alright. Stop reading after that. by Entropy Stew 06/05/2012, 7:13pm PDT
I can buy that evolutionary pressure has made a people more badass by Arbit 06/06/2012, 4:08pm PDT
Well, the Sardaukar were the only opposition the Fremen actually complimented by Entropy Stew 06/08/2012, 3:48am PDT
I remember reading when Jessica cut the Shadout Mapes she only bled for a second by WITTGENSTEIN 02/16/2013, 1:05pm PST
beefswelling NT by An adult 06/07/2012, 6:23pm PDT
It's not perfect by fabio 06/05/2012, 8:02pm PDT
I don't think the complicated explaining away of firearms was an allegory. by motherfuckerfoodeater 06/06/2012, 10:28pm PDT
I could never stand the writing. by skip 06/05/2012, 8:07pm PDT
The universe's internal logic re: Holtzmann is contrived but at least consistent by WITTGENSTEIN 02/16/2013, 1:12pm PST
Not just any hostage, a Bene Gesserit bride with superhuman sexual prowess. NT by MM 02/16/2013, 10:28pm PST
Also, DeVries fucked up. by MM 02/16/2013, 11:02pm PST
That's like a Rube Goldberg revenge scheme though. by WITTGENSTEIN 02/17/2013, 10:26am PST
Leto already knew the attack was coming, complete with Sardukar, he explained it by Paul 02/17/2013, 10:58am PST
They expected a raiding force, etc. But this is a faggot argument for nerds. NT by WITTGENSTEIN 02/17/2013, 11:04am PST
Look, here's Dune by Mischief Maker 02/17/2013, 11:45pm PST
Sounds like he lifted the race consciousness thing from Last and First Men by Vested Id 02/18/2013, 12:26am PST
Re: Look, here's Dune by fabio 02/18/2013, 12:41am PST
Re: Look, here's Dune by Mischief Maker 02/18/2013, 7:36am PST
I just wished they had developed the Thurfir and Feyd plots to completion by fabio 02/18/2013, 7:54am PST
Agreed. NT by Mischief Maker 02/18/2013, 7:56am PST
Whoops. by Mischief Maker 02/18/2013, 7:57am PST
Just be glad Alexandro Jodorowsky never got his 14 hout adaptation made. by Mischief Maker 06/14/2013, 9:48am PDT
hour NT by Mischief Maker 06/14/2013, 9:48am PDT
I forgot about that, BUT.... by WITTGENSTEIN 02/17/2013, 10:27am PST
"His wife was bene gesserit, the signs are all over him." NT by Jessica 02/17/2013, 10:56am PST
"I really love choking on cock and spending inordinate amounts of cash on a J.D" NT by MischiefMaker 02/17/2013, 11:05am PST
Re: The universe's internal logic re: Holtzmann is contrived but at least by fabio 02/17/2013, 5:09pm PST
What further retaliation could there have been? He didn't care at that point. by WITTGENSTEIN 02/17/2013, 5:57pm PST
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