Bill Dungsroman wrote:


Fucking obviously.

You're trying to tell me that the only "real-world" solution to international problems are US-run hit squads. I'm trying to tell you that not only is that a shitty idea, since that makes whoever is with us (at any point in time) with us, but whoever's agin us is, well, On The List, (until 10 years from now maybe, when a whole new batch of folks are On The List, and some aren't, and some who are now dead thanks to The List could have been taken off, and the fallout from scouring the world of Evil (read: people we don't like) has destroyed our international relations with a substantial (and progressively growing) subpopulation of the world. But hell, they're all on The List, so fuck 'em. For now, at least, maybe later, unless we kill them first), but also it's impossible. Civilian casualties and property are always collateral damage. We can't/won't/don't do that, surgically excise the Bad Ones, anyway, so we get wars. I'm proving you wrong, on a basic common sense level, and you're telling me "Yes, wars, yes, that's what I mean." How the fuck does my rebuttal to your original point prove your point? I'm getting at, you're an idiot.

Lizard_King wrote:

No, I'm not. You're just missing the point of all those large scale wars. The most effective way to end them was for one side to kill or neutralize key individuals on the other side.

Using what, a fucking satellite laser beam? Captain America? Do you get my point? YOUR REAL-WORLD SOLUTION CANNOT OR WILL NOT HAPPEN IN THE REAL WORLD, THUS IT IS BY DEFINITION NOT A "REAL WORLD" SOLUTION. And don't tell me I'm missing the point of every large scale war. If you're telling me "kill the other guys" was the point of every war, then the only point you got is on top of your fucking head.

Lizard_King wrote:

Plenty of civilians died? Of course, given strategy and technology of whatever war, but that becomes parenthetical in the current discussion over Iraq given the relatively minor civilian casualties.

You're the one who went all History Channel on me, Bunky. Don't back out because you don't like the way the breeze is drifting.

Lizard_King wrote:

Killing (relatively) few Iraqis now proportionately saves a lot of lives due to the absence of the regime, so I don't know how much of an objective standard humaneness is.

Can I borrow your crystal ball for the weekend?

Have you ever said something, and the person you're talking to goes real silent and looks at you like you're a complete idiot? I'm doing that right now, to my monitor. Do you want to talk about Iraq, or not? Could you ring a little bell or something that lets me know when broad generalizations are allowed?

What does that have to do with celebrating death? You know, my original argument?

Lizard_King wrote:

What I said was "What I see is a subset of Middle Easterners who are simply problems; you start by killing off the worst of them, and the others will either fall into line or get their turn."

Your statement needs clarification: "What I (a middle-class twentysomething WASP-bred American) see is a subset of Middle Easterners who are simply problems (to someone, so I'm told); you (form American hit squads and) start (alienating the US from the world at large) by killing off the worst of them (according to our mercurial agenda and opinion), and the others (and there will be others, are you listening, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China, and the almost certain et cetera?) will either fall into line (because killing extremists and bombing their countries, thereby killing the nonextremists unluckily living near them, always works!) or get their turn (to retaliate)."

Lizard_King wrote:

In Iraq, only a cretin would infer that I meant the entire Arab race in the area.

I'm not currently in Iraq, am I still a cretin?

Regardless, who gives a fuck what you (as in you, but more importantly, you-as-our-government) "meant." What you did was compose a list of "Arabs" (shh, nobody say nothing) and start whacking them.

Who/what decides who makes the list?

Who doesn't? Is there an algorithm? And, here's the punchline, are they less likely to end up on that list if they deal in vital commerce with us?

Are you getting the drift here, Chauncey? Are you feeling the moral loggerheads created by one country (or a concerted group of countries) figuring out themselves who the Bad Guys are, especially when your one-again, off-again friend History has proven that the US has put into power, funded, worked with, and supported those who would become latter-day Bad Guys because well, we just went and did it for our own reasons?

How about if China started up a list, and we came in at #1 with a bullet?

Oh, there's a sound international policy for you. DEAR COUNTRY: WE HATE U AND U WILL SOON DIE signed THE OTHER COUNTRY.

Lizard_King wrote:

In Iraq, that pretty obviously means the remaining Baathists and their fedayeen etc allies, who must be killed, captured, or brought into line depending on what is most efficient.

Nuking the whole place would be efficient as hell. Shut up.

The oil argument is invalid because you added some I's?

You're telling me the middle east (Iraq specifically) hasn't gotten to do the things it's done because a lot of dinosaurs died there millions of years ago? So, Germany and France opposed the war because the French still don't like us and Germany is still bitter over WW2? Shut the fuck up, you brandish your ignorance like a fatty does his Bacon Ultimate Cheeseburger.

AND THUSLY I AM FLAYED OPEN FOR ALL TO SEE! Also, I no doubt and likely consider you a babbling idiot who says whatever the fuck is on his mind at whomever the fuck he's talking to, in a desperate effort to sound right. In summary:

Who the fuck ever: "w00t! People are dead!"

BDR/chimp, others: "Yeah, great. Dead people. Oo-rah."

LK: "OH SO YOU'RE IMPLYING THE WAR WASN'T NECESSARY AND RIGHT?"

BDR: "Nigger what? Naw dude, feeling triumphant and vindicated over it is just gay."

LK: "IF I HAD MY HIT LISTS AND DEATH SQUADS GOING I'D SHOW YOU GAY, HIPPIE!

And some of us lament the fact that it had to happen at all, because it sucks.