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Re: Since you asked me by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 9:25pm PDT
Senor Barborito wrote:

I think it would have been extremely naive to believe there were still serviceable WMD in Iraq as of September or so prior to the war, and by late February there should have been little question to someone who had given the published evidence a cursory examination.

Well, even Hans Blix thought that was the case, and he certainly had no evil Konservatives telling him what to do.

First off, much can be deduced by the greater actions of the nations in question - Hussein all but broadcast in plain English, "we'll do whatever you want, just don't invade." Unlimited inspections by the UN? You've got them. Destroy an entire class of missles? On it.

Much CAN be deduced, but what you are doing is taking a conclusion and adapting the evidence to it. He lied, deceived, and did everything possible to avoid successful inspections. The only time we came close in recent history was when Bush threatened the use of force credibly, and even then Hussein blew it. The inspections were a farce and you know it.
In fact, it is questionable whether the idea of inspections can ever operate in any situation where the local power doesn't want it to...

Would the Bush administration ever abide by those standards if the situation were reversed?

Are you suggesting that it is in need of the same treatment as the Hussein regime? Are you suggesting that the situation could ever, in any realistic scenario, be reversed? Are you trying to get me to get all worked up about international law and other things that I don't believe in and have never used as an argument?
We all know that the way the US operates, like any other, is based on realistic considerations of whose in charge.

Meanwhile, the US blustered with various pieces of evidence that were proven false, specious, and in one case cribbed from a graduate student's thesis - no matter how much Hussein acquiesced, the US continued to push towards war at every turn regardless of what allies we alienated in process. Almost as though they were following PNAC's agendasheet to the letter and reasons be damned.


What is the PNAC? Moreover, recasting the situation as "Hussein the Peacemaker" is a really, really nice touch. I suppose you think Bush I "provoked" him into invading Kuwait?

Nevermind that Blix and his team found barely anything. Nevermind the flimsy nature of the evidence the US presented. Then there was the matter of former inspector Ritter's interview with the Guardian. True, Ritter had accepted money from an Iraqi businessman to make a movie about the inspections - but what that article fails to mention is that the final tally left him paying $40,000 out of his own pocket ($80,000 actually, but he took $40,000 of the money he got to make the movie as salary) to make that movie, which no propagandist would ever do. What's more, he wasn't approached about it until after he began writing in defense of Iraq and the earlier inspections in '99.

It was pretty obvious that Ritter did about a 180 in his views of Iraq. Literally. He went from viewing Hussein as someone who needed to be removed from power immediately to predicting Iraqi victory in the war. I think the blackmail angle is a far more reasonable explanation than yours. You believe the worst of all who disagree with you; I suggest you use the same standards for your allies.

Too many pieces of weak evidence being waved about to make the case, too many good points against said case overlooked, and the US administration behaving very tellingly while Hussein gave in to their demands as much as he could without completely losing face? Then we have the issue of PNAC's principles, and more relevant letter to Clinton on Iraq.

Do you really expect me to try to argue against your religious belief in the Konservative Konspiracy (TM)? Like I say to the jackasses who trace everything to Jewish control of our government: 1. If they are running things, good job and where can I sign up? and 2. Maybe other countries could use their own Conservative/Jewish conspirators to whip them into shape.


You have eyes and a brain, so do I. I predicted we wouldn't find much if anything in the way of WMD well in advance of the war based on the above and I appear to have been right. Will we still possibly find a small cache of well-hidden WMDs? We might possibly find anything. But the final measure is that the claim of Hussein being any kind of threat to anybody except his own people while we held a policy of containment upon it was false - and this was fairly obvious from the beginning. I suggested that the United States take a few cribbed notes from its rich history of toppling third world governments and apply them to Iraq way back then, and I still maintain my belief that this would've been the correct course of action.

And I said from the very beginning that I didn't give a damn about WMD's, rather seeing the whole thing as a cover for a Middle Eastern strategy involving active US engagement.


If even the the barest facts of what Ritter said in that interview were true - easily ascertained by questioning an expert on WMD - then it was a non-issue before the war and is even less of an issue now. There probably were and are very little to no viable weapons of any kind between UN-supervised destruction (90-95% of all WMD capability), unsupervised Iraqi destruction (unspecified percentage of the remainder), and most importantly aging for what little remains.

Then find me this alternate expert. Because Ritter is about as reliable as the Iraqi propaganda minister, and less amusing.

I agree. It was not an impeachable offense because it is not a crime to lie in a State of the Union address in order to deceive the nation into an unnecessary war. Ask veronica whether or not I alternatingly laughed and swore like a sailor throughout that speech - she'll vouch for my having done so. What Bush was saying was pretty obviously false, and the actions of the United States government in any kind of diplomatic sense at the time made it very clear that this was being rammed through the policy banks like-it-or-not just like the Patriot Act. There was not and is not an excuse for not having seen this - the right certainly had its cynicism armed when Clinton was in office, and rightly so - he perjured himself regarding a trivial personal matter while sitting President and dodged Sierra Leone in a stunning display of callousness to human rights. I didn't make any excuses for him then, and I don't do so now. The right had and has MANY MORE reasons to be cynical about the actions of the current administration - the pike at the gates and the sign nailed there by the State Department, not to mention Ashcroft running roughshod over the Constitution - there is no excuse for not being so.

Um, yeah. Save the whales. Or something.

There is no reason to impeach Bush, there is every reason to vote against him in the upcoming election.

...except that the Democratic alternative will be worse in every respect.


I hope some of you vote for Dean in your local primaries, and hopefully in the election in '04 - he's the left's only worthy candidate by a large measure.

Hell, if I had any money to spare I'd donate to his campaign. I like the guy, and I'll encourage a non-gun control Democrat any day of the week.
PREVIOUS NEXT REPLY QUOTE
 
The man just keeps making sense. by Lizard_King 08/06/2003, 10:07pm PDT NEW
    Re: The man just keeps making sense. by Antonius Snape 08/07/2003, 4:12am PDT NEW
        You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by Lizard_King 08/07/2003, 2:32pm PDT NEW
            Re: You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by foogla 08/07/2003, 3:41pm PDT NEW
                Re: You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by laudablepuss 08/07/2003, 4:13pm PDT NEW
                    Didn't his awful cruelty and dictatorship bother you? Only WMDs? NT by mrs. johnson 08/07/2003, 5:02pm PDT NEW
                        Sure. So what? by laudablepuss 08/07/2003, 5:16pm PDT NEW
                        Re: Didn't his awful cruelty and dictatorship bother you? Only WMDs? by Lizard_King 08/07/2003, 9:10pm PDT NEW
                        Re: Didn't his awful cruelty and dictatorship bother you? Only WMDs? by godamit 08/08/2003, 10:49am PDT NEW
                Re: You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by Lizard_King 08/07/2003, 8:55pm PDT NEW
                    Re: You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by foogla 08/08/2003, 4:32am PDT NEW
            The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Senor Barborito 08/08/2003, 4:34am PDT NEW
                Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 10:49am PDT NEW
                Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 11:05am PDT NEW
                    Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 11:17am PDT NEW
                    Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Fullofkittens 08/08/2003, 12:31pm PDT NEW
                        Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 12:44pm PDT NEW
                        Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 3:03pm PDT NEW
                            Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 3:59pm PDT NEW
                                Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 4:27pm PDT NEW
                                    My "we elected Gore" comment... by Fullofkittens 08/08/2003, 4:57pm PDT NEW
                                        Re: My "we elected Gore" comment... by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 5:29pm PDT NEW
                                            As you speak by Fullofkittens 08/08/2003, 7:01pm PDT NEW
                                                Re: As you speak by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 7:19pm PDT NEW
                                                    Re: As you speak by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 9:33pm PDT NEW
                                                        Re: As you speak by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 12:00am PDT NEW
                                                            What the hell? by Damocles 08/09/2003, 2:12am PDT NEW
                                                                Re: What the hell? by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 2:29am PDT NEW
                                                            Re: As you speak by I need clarification 08/09/2003, 2:33pm PDT NEW
                                                                Re: As you speak by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 4:24pm PDT NEW
                                                                    Re: As you speak by I need clarification 08/09/2003, 4:52pm PDT NEW
                                                                        Re: As you speak by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 5:41pm PDT NEW
                                                                            Re: As you speak by I need clarification 08/09/2003, 10:22pm PDT NEW
                                                                                If we were a democracy we'd get better tech, but then have riots because of Iraq NT by Roop Dirump 08/09/2003, 11:07pm PDT NEW
                                                                                    Or you'd have more energy, more Fungus growth and more Drones while at war. NT by foogla 08/10/2003, 4:49am PDT NEW
                                                                                Are you just trolling me now? Or have you always? NT by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 11:46pm PDT NEW
                                                                                    For a while now, yeah by I need clarification 08/10/2003, 1:14am PDT NEW
                            Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 5:54pm PDT NEW
                                My pleasure by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 6:03pm PDT NEW
                                    Well, that explains a lot. by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 6:35pm PDT NEW
                    I hate it when you get lazy by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 2:01pm PDT NEW
                        I hate it when you post by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 2:54pm PDT NEW
                            Re: I hate it when you post by Dr. Logic 08/08/2003, 3:40pm PDT NEW
                                Re: I hate it when you post by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 3:52pm PDT NEW
                                    Re: I hate it when you post by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 5:26pm PDT NEW
                                        Re: I hate it when you post by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 5:56pm PDT NEW
                                            My mistake. by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 7:00pm PDT NEW
                                                Re: My mistake. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 8:51pm PDT NEW
                            Don't accuse me of babbling while the spit bubbles drift by your retard helmet by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 3:52pm PDT NEW
                                Re: Don't accuse me of babbling while the spit bubbles drift by your retard helm by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 3:58pm PDT NEW
                                    Re: Don't accuse me of babbling while the spit bubbles drift by your retard helm by Dr. Logic 08/08/2003, 4:06pm PDT NEW
                                        It didn't originate from the document. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 4:34pm PDT NEW
                            "learned" implies truth. NT by Damocles 08/09/2003, 2:13am PDT NEW
                                Hitting "reply" implies you have something to add. by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 2:31am PDT NEW
                                    I used to think LK was Damocles's new nick NT by FABIO 08/09/2003, 10:52pm PDT NEW
                                        That our views are directly contrary must have tipped you off. NT by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 11:46pm PDT NEW
                                            Re: That our views are directly contrary must have tipped you off. by FABIO 08/10/2003, 1:29am PDT NEW
                    Since you asked me by Senor Barborito 08/08/2003, 7:01pm PDT NEW
                        Re: Since you asked me by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 9:25pm PDT NEW
                            That response was beneath you by Senor Barborito 08/08/2003, 10:44pm PDT NEW
                                Nothing is beneath me. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 11:56pm PDT NEW
                                    Thank you. by Senor Barborito 08/09/2003, 7:12am PDT NEW
                                        Re: Thank you. by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 1:13pm PDT NEW
                                            Hmmm by Senor Barborito 08/09/2003, 2:57pm PDT NEW
                                                Re: Hmmm by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 5:47pm PDT NEW
                WHAT??!!!! by Mischief Maker 08/08/2003, 1:08pm PDT NEW
                    That's because you are (far) to the left of even them. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 2:55pm PDT NEW
                        Imagine an airplane. by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 3:30pm PDT NEW
                            Re: Imagine an airplane. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 3:49pm PDT NEW
                                You people must feel awful by mrs. johnson 08/08/2003, 6:54pm PDT NEW
                                    That's not what a writer would do NT by Fussbett 08/09/2003, 2:21am PDT NEW
                                    Ignorance is only bliss for fools and cowards.NT NT by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 5:49pm PDT NEW
                                        What if the topic at hand is menstruation? NT by Senor Barborito 08/09/2003, 6:20pm PDT NEW
                                            Your own or someone else's? NT by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 6:42pm PDT NEW
                            When can I stop imagining an airplane? NT by Fussbett 08/09/2003, 2:23am PDT NEW
                                Now you have to imagine it slamming into the WTC :( NT by I need clarification 08/09/2003, 2:50am PDT NEW
                                    Then you have to imagine the entire passanger compliment fucking. wildly. -nt- by Chairman Mao 08/09/2003, 3:11am PDT NEW
                                        Talk about explosive orgasms NT by TERRASTS R SEXY 08/09/2003, 2:58pm PDT NEW
                                    On the upside: Hippies and Nazis on the left wing die. NT by Fussbett 08/09/2003, 4:59pm PDT NEW
                                        :( NT by foogla 08/09/2003, 8:00pm PDT NEW
                                I was going to tie it in and forgot. So, uh, you can stop now. NT by laudablepuss 08/10/2003, 3:22am PDT NEW
 
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