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Thank you. by Senor Barborito 08/09/2003, 7:12am PDT
Lizard_King wrote:

Apparently.

Anyhow, I do see what you are saying, and in fact your view is fairly reasonable.


Thank you. I don't write any of this because it amuses me, but because I'm honestly worried. As much as the left dislikes conservatives/Republicans in general, we're missing the old Bush and Reagan administrations right about now. The current administration seems much like Tony Blair's - a hijacking by a select interest group of an entire political party. Blair is acting wildly out of sync with the Labor party (imagine Gore winning the election and suddenly acting like Rumsfeld), and the members of the current administration hailing from PNAC seem to have done something similar. I honestly don't mind the current Bush so much as I mind his entire cabinet.

Lizard_King wrote:

But it is interesting what a polar opposite my view of Hussein's actions in the last decade are; I think they are wholly irrational UNLESS he was hiding something, seeing as how sanctions, bombings, and threats of war were endured and jerked around to the last minute. The search for sovereignty argument only goes so far; I don't know of many defeated governments that act like that unless they are hiding something.


You're absolutely right about that. Were I to speculate he didn't fully dispose of everything-everything (or so close as makes no difference once aging is factored into the equation) until the US *really* rattled the sword and UN inspectors were given unfettered access. Obviously if he's playing ball and betting his dictatorship on nothing being found, we're almost certain not to find anything. The obvious next step in the Republican handbook on small countries they wish to alter is 'have the CIA collapse their government.' The CIA are demolition experts when it comes to third world governments, and if ever a violation of 'ethics' were to be happily overlooked by the left's principle-bound intellectual middle class (the right's most strident foes), this case would certainly be the one. Certainly religious strife in Iraq was wildly exploitable, though the latter Bush would've had just cause to swear loudly about the former and his abandonment of the Iraqi rebels in Gulf War I. Most of the left, no fans of Hussein themselves thanks to his human rights violations, would've raised a glass and tipped a hat to the current administration if that course had been steered instead. Not just a method to save thousands of lives, billions of dollars, and our relationships with our allies - it would've been wildly politically expedient to the Republicans to pursue this course.

When this course wasn't followed - that was the tip-off that something was up. Self-interested political groups loaded with intelligent people do not behave in especially stupid ways that wildly deviate from that self-interest unless something is very wrong. When the current administration did so, that was when I knew to start looking at this (spotted on Metafilter September 15th '02) with a little more acceptance than I otherwise would. It wasn't just especially solid - those politicians willingly signed those declarations of intent publicly viewable on the Internet - it explained the behavior being seen perfectly. Towards the end of January a convincing case had been made, and everything that followed continued to fuel that suspicion perfectly. Unlike Hilary, I don't see conservative conspiracies at every turn - but I do know that the time to get seriously concerned about the possibility is when a group of intelligent people behave in a seemingly unintelligent, uncharacteristic, and especially Orwellian manner.

Lizard_King wrote:

North Korea and Iran are different, and obviously so. Iran has a strong possibility of internal change within the next few years; Iraq had none. NK is surrounded by other powers capable of exerting pressure, including its backers, therefore it is an easy choice to use diplomacy. Their hate-mail is easy to handle as the limp-wristed bluff that it is.

Iraq is in the midst of a power vacuum. The Taliban made obvious that ignoring the despotic regimes in the Middle East when they acted up was foolish. Any successful strategy for reshuffling the region so it is not composed entirely of America-hating despots might as well begin there, especially when Hussein's continued presence did nothing but provide more reasons for eliminating him.


Dead on. The people in PNAC are behaving in an intelligent manner if the basis of their agenda is sound, but what they want runs significantly counter to typical American policy regarding intervention in foreign powers. You might call me a 'conservative' in the realm of foreign relations, much as I am regarding the 2nd Amendment. The United States had successfully countered the communist threat via the technique of third-world government implosion - now unquestionably on top, there's no reason to go about making new enemies and alienating existing allies without cause. We live in an increasingly interconnected world and terrorism is the consequence of improper behavior within it - people might resent your success or morals, but they won't kill themselves just to hurt you without damned good reason. Our old foreign relations methods took advantage of this by providing few good reasons (though we should have been more emphatic about the bin Laden threat - hindsight is 20/20) to really hate the United States. PNAC's policies will only cause an entire region rich with guerrilla warriors and suicide bombers to lash out at us further as our agenda appears more and more like a new Crusade to them.

Given all this I would contend the Afghanistan invasion was justified and that the war on Iraq was not. The Canadian government and many of our allies apparently came to a largely similar conclusion, because they were with us for the former but not the latter.

Lizard_King wrote:

I think you feel about Dean the way I felt about Forbes and his flat tax. But no one prompting national health care black holes is getting anywhere near my vote, no matter how much I like his 2nd amendment views.


You might find the links in this post, as well as this link interesting. Admittedly, certain specific beneficial elements of other healthcare systems ought to be adopted as that report and others like it would indicate beneficial.

My question for Dean is whether this is the appropriate economic and political time for such a transition, but I don't argue the eventual necessity.

--SB
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The man just keeps making sense. by Lizard_King 08/06/2003, 10:07pm PDT NEW
    Re: The man just keeps making sense. by Antonius Snape 08/07/2003, 4:12am PDT NEW
        You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by Lizard_King 08/07/2003, 2:32pm PDT NEW
            Re: You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by foogla 08/07/2003, 3:41pm PDT NEW
                Re: You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by laudablepuss 08/07/2003, 4:13pm PDT NEW
                    Didn't his awful cruelty and dictatorship bother you? Only WMDs? NT by mrs. johnson 08/07/2003, 5:02pm PDT NEW
                        Sure. So what? by laudablepuss 08/07/2003, 5:16pm PDT NEW
                        Re: Didn't his awful cruelty and dictatorship bother you? Only WMDs? by Lizard_King 08/07/2003, 9:10pm PDT NEW
                        Re: Didn't his awful cruelty and dictatorship bother you? Only WMDs? by godamit 08/08/2003, 10:49am PDT NEW
                Re: You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by Lizard_King 08/07/2003, 8:55pm PDT NEW
                    Re: You cite Buchanan AND Raimondo in one post. by foogla 08/08/2003, 4:32am PDT NEW
            The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Senor Barborito 08/08/2003, 4:34am PDT NEW
                Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 10:49am PDT NEW
                Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 11:05am PDT NEW
                    Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 11:17am PDT NEW
                    Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Fullofkittens 08/08/2003, 12:31pm PDT NEW
                        Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 12:44pm PDT NEW
                        Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 3:03pm PDT NEW
                            Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 3:59pm PDT NEW
                                Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 4:27pm PDT NEW
                                    My "we elected Gore" comment... by Fullofkittens 08/08/2003, 4:57pm PDT NEW
                                        Re: My "we elected Gore" comment... by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 5:29pm PDT NEW
                                            As you speak by Fullofkittens 08/08/2003, 7:01pm PDT NEW
                                                Re: As you speak by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 7:19pm PDT NEW
                                                    Re: As you speak by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 9:33pm PDT NEW
                                                        Re: As you speak by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 12:00am PDT NEW
                                                            What the hell? by Damocles 08/09/2003, 2:12am PDT NEW
                                                                Re: What the hell? by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 2:29am PDT NEW
                                                            Re: As you speak by I need clarification 08/09/2003, 2:33pm PDT NEW
                                                                Re: As you speak by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 4:24pm PDT NEW
                                                                    Re: As you speak by I need clarification 08/09/2003, 4:52pm PDT NEW
                                                                        Re: As you speak by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 5:41pm PDT NEW
                                                                            Re: As you speak by I need clarification 08/09/2003, 10:22pm PDT NEW
                                                                                If we were a democracy we'd get better tech, but then have riots because of Iraq NT by Roop Dirump 08/09/2003, 11:07pm PDT NEW
                                                                                    Or you'd have more energy, more Fungus growth and more Drones while at war. NT by foogla 08/10/2003, 4:49am PDT NEW
                                                                                Are you just trolling me now? Or have you always? NT by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 11:46pm PDT NEW
                                                                                    For a while now, yeah by I need clarification 08/10/2003, 1:14am PDT NEW
                            Re: The real reason the left opposed the war, and other crap by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 5:54pm PDT NEW
                                My pleasure by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 6:03pm PDT NEW
                                    Well, that explains a lot. by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 6:35pm PDT NEW
                    I hate it when you get lazy by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 2:01pm PDT NEW
                        I hate it when you post by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 2:54pm PDT NEW
                            Re: I hate it when you post by Dr. Logic 08/08/2003, 3:40pm PDT NEW
                                Re: I hate it when you post by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 3:52pm PDT NEW
                                    Re: I hate it when you post by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 5:26pm PDT NEW
                                        Re: I hate it when you post by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 5:56pm PDT NEW
                                            My mistake. by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 7:00pm PDT NEW
                                                Re: My mistake. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 8:51pm PDT NEW
                            Don't accuse me of babbling while the spit bubbles drift by your retard helmet by I need clarification 08/08/2003, 3:52pm PDT NEW
                                Re: Don't accuse me of babbling while the spit bubbles drift by your retard helm by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 3:58pm PDT NEW
                                    Re: Don't accuse me of babbling while the spit bubbles drift by your retard helm by Dr. Logic 08/08/2003, 4:06pm PDT NEW
                                        It didn't originate from the document. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 4:34pm PDT NEW
                            "learned" implies truth. NT by Damocles 08/09/2003, 2:13am PDT NEW
                                Hitting "reply" implies you have something to add. by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 2:31am PDT NEW
                                    I used to think LK was Damocles's new nick NT by FABIO 08/09/2003, 10:52pm PDT NEW
                                        That our views are directly contrary must have tipped you off. NT by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 11:46pm PDT NEW
                                            Re: That our views are directly contrary must have tipped you off. by FABIO 08/10/2003, 1:29am PDT NEW
                    Since you asked me by Senor Barborito 08/08/2003, 7:01pm PDT NEW
                        Re: Since you asked me by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 9:25pm PDT NEW
                            That response was beneath you by Senor Barborito 08/08/2003, 10:44pm PDT NEW
                                Nothing is beneath me. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 11:56pm PDT NEW
                                    Thank you. by Senor Barborito 08/09/2003, 7:12am PDT NEW
                                        Re: Thank you. by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 1:13pm PDT NEW
                                            Hmmm by Senor Barborito 08/09/2003, 2:57pm PDT NEW
                                                Re: Hmmm by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 5:47pm PDT NEW
                WHAT??!!!! by Mischief Maker 08/08/2003, 1:08pm PDT NEW
                    That's because you are (far) to the left of even them. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 2:55pm PDT NEW
                        Imagine an airplane. by laudablepuss 08/08/2003, 3:30pm PDT NEW
                            Re: Imagine an airplane. by Lizard_King 08/08/2003, 3:49pm PDT NEW
                                You people must feel awful by mrs. johnson 08/08/2003, 6:54pm PDT NEW
                                    That's not what a writer would do NT by Fussbett 08/09/2003, 2:21am PDT NEW
                                    Ignorance is only bliss for fools and cowards.NT NT by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 5:49pm PDT NEW
                                        What if the topic at hand is menstruation? NT by Senor Barborito 08/09/2003, 6:20pm PDT NEW
                                            Your own or someone else's? NT by Lizard_King 08/09/2003, 6:42pm PDT NEW
                            When can I stop imagining an airplane? NT by Fussbett 08/09/2003, 2:23am PDT NEW
                                Now you have to imagine it slamming into the WTC :( NT by I need clarification 08/09/2003, 2:50am PDT NEW
                                    Then you have to imagine the entire passanger compliment fucking. wildly. -nt- by Chairman Mao 08/09/2003, 3:11am PDT NEW
                                        Talk about explosive orgasms NT by TERRASTS R SEXY 08/09/2003, 2:58pm PDT NEW
                                    On the upside: Hippies and Nazis on the left wing die. NT by Fussbett 08/09/2003, 4:59pm PDT NEW
                                        :( NT by foogla 08/09/2003, 8:00pm PDT NEW
                                I was going to tie it in and forgot. So, uh, you can stop now. NT by laudablepuss 08/10/2003, 3:22am PDT NEW
 
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