laudablepuss wrote:

CrackerBarrel wrote:

I think things are changing fast in world affairs and I think we ought to wake up to it for a second. Yeah, France, who cares? But the point is that throughout the cold war there has always been this polite facade and grudging support from the more liberal members of the "free world" but now it seems that the gloves are off. We all know that France more or less openly criticizes us and we generally turn the other cheek considering it harmless. I think Germany here is playing their conscience which is really above reproach. What I don't think the hotheaded Perle realizes is that he probably doesn't like a world where no one cooperates with the US. In other words, he actually ought to kiss more ass because the ramifications worldwide are, I think, a bit more dire than he considers.

Look: if France forces this issue, vetoes our UN resolution and we have to move without the support of the UN then it will be France and not we who have destroyed the credibility of the UN maybe beyond repair. These guys are risking a whole hell of a lot to keep Saddam in power. In otherwords, they are completely unreasonable. Kissing French ass will not remove Saddam from power, it will not stop his weapons programs, it will do NOTHING to further our vital national interests. It is NOT AN OPTION so forget it. Anyway, if everyone hates us, how is the world of no cooperation worse than our current world of active subordination?

It's a foregone conclusion that we're going to hit Iraq. It's been in the cards for awhile and we have the support, however nominal, to do it, but I think this will be the last time we can embark on such an overtly offensive military maneuver without the serious backlash of the world community. And it seems they are less cowed by us and, in fact, more openly disdainful of our policies. Did anyone catch the statements made by Nelson Mandela last week? Think of how much we've done for him and think about how he dares to insult us. The same for Germany. The insult in itself is a non-issue (though people mistakingly decide to focus on it) it's the fact that Mandela, and Germany, and France stand up in the open now to loudly refute US policies abroad.

I'm surprised and saddened to hear that Mandella has lost his goddam mind. But when did the US "cow" other countries, especially our fucking allies? When were people being secretly shot or imprisoned for loudly proclaiming that we suck? It's like you think that we were somehow preventing people from disagreeing with us before. It's not the fact that these countries and individuals declaim our policies as bad, but that their arguments are wholly unconvincing and fly in the face of the facts and the agreements they themselves are a party to, particularly the UN resolutions that were passed concerning Iraq. With allies like these . . .

And I sort of like it. It helps keep us in check. Believe or not, the US government is not the sole arbiter of world justice (I made myself laugh with that). Ang guess what? It doesn't really matter how much I or any of you like it. I think France and Germany's denial to aid us go beyond Saddam. The US derives much of it's world might through the unquestioning compliance of even the most powerful countries. Now that that compliance is degrading, I think you'll start to see more and more overt action against the United States. Sadly, I imagine the most nefarious organizations will see this and play up to rising anti-US sympathies and may be able to get away with more than they ought. To be frank, this is not the time to lose allies. But then again the Reagan administration was never really known for its delicacy.

Keeping us in check is not an end, it's a means to an end. Perversely saying "no" every time we say "yes" is not a legitimate diplomatic strategy. If they have a disagreement, fine. But simply opposing us for the sake of opposing us is fucking insane. Also, the US derives its might from the fact that we have dozens of times the wealth of other countries, a huge population (relatively speaking), and fantastic natural resources, among other things. We've never relied on "unquestioning compliance". Give me one example of this supposed compliance.

Reading over his statements again it strikes me that Perle is a bit out of his era. That whole "show of hands" nonsense not only smacks of playground bullying, but it begs the question: What if France and Germany and even the whole European Union declares itself "not supportive" of US world policy? Do you think declaring them "enemies" and investigating their motives are going to anything? We're obviously decades (I hope) if not forever away from military action against any European country, so what exactly would we do if we really can't call Germany an ally anymore? Actually, maybe, try to be more gentle in our heavy-handed international proclamations and actions? Nah. I heard about the Mandela comments on Crossfire where that hopeless nerd in the bowtie called for some sort of retaliation against Mandela, The Nobel Peace Prize winner. I heard that and laughed because you can hear the desperate impotence. I agree that Mandela's statements are a bit over the top, but maybe knowingly so. We can't strong-arm anyone anymore and it's time our international actions reflected that.

"In reaction to Mandela's comments, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said Bush was grateful to the many European leaders who 'obviously think differently.' " Sounds like that number is dwindling.

What if the EU decided not to support us? Would our national interest in defending ourselves proactively from lunatics with powerful weapons suddenly go away? We'd have to take unilateral action in those cases. Anyway, who declared anyone an enemy? Perle merely said they aren't our ally. They are, in fact, our ally, and Perle can't change that all by himself no matter what he does. I tend to believe that he meant that they are not acting like allies, and in that respect he's correct.

OH MY FUCKING GOD! You guys are on about Perle? Did you even read that article you linked up? MANDELA IS OUT OF HIS FUCKING SKULL. Yes, his arguments are definitely worth considering. Mandela is about 30 times more inflamtory than Perle and has, for the moment, a lot more credibility in the international community. Hillarious.